3rd grade math - am I crazy or are they?

Parent Cafe
21

<p>This brings back nightmares for me too. My youngest hated explaining how he got a math solution, showing his work, or doing vocabulary sheets in math. He hated it so much he didn’t do it. He was not allowed to take advanced math in high school. I explained to him that he either go along “with the system” or opt out, so he did. He did, however, get a perfect math score on his ACT, enroll at UMich school of engineering, and is now graduating in April with a math minor.</p>

<p>Let the kid get bad math grades in 3rd grade math. Life will go on.</p>

22

<p>Haha, this reminds me of a story my fiance tells about 12th-grade calculus.</p>

<p>He was asked to do a problem on the board, and he flew through it, skipping several steps that he considered obvious. The teacher said, “How did you get the answer? I don’t get it.” My fiance replied, “What’s there to get?”</p>

<p>I agree with marite above. The problem is that kids who are good at math just don’t see where the need for explanation fits in if the problems are too easy.</p>

23

<p>Mollie:</p>

<p>When my S was in 6th grade (and knew more math than the teacher), she suggested that one way he could stop being bored was to teach other kids. He responded that he did not think he could make a good teacher because too many things were so obvious to him that he did not think to explain them.
Well, he now has to explain math to students on a regular basis… but they’re college students, not 6th graders.</p>

24

<p>Mollie, I love the story about your fiance! </p>

<p>Marite, Thank you for mentioning the book. I read a few reviews on Amazon, and it sounds wonderful. I’ve just ordered it for my older son, and I will read it, too. </p>

<p>I don’t care about my (younger) son’s grades, but i do care that he is miserable in school. The inexperienced teacher has decided that there is something seriously wrong with him. She has written lists of his faults, including daydreaming all day in school (bored), frequently wearing his shirt backward (turtlenecks; don’t look too different backward - he doesn’t wear his pants backward), doesn’t write his name on papers, etc. She has called in the school psychologist to observe him, and there is going to be a meeting of the “team” to discuss his problems. I am stunned by this, as my younger son is about the most normal child I’ve ever met, very social, and is usually loved by everyone, adults and children alike. He is happy and charming (my husband and I don’t know where he came from!) and has never had a personality conflict with anyone before.</p>

25

<p>Since the third grade my son has lost points on math assignments and tests for not showing all the steps. (In the lower grades it was for not writing enough sentences to please the teacher.) Whenever I pointed out to him that it was stupid to keep losing points for something so avoidable, he answered that it didn’t matter in the long run because in college classses they wouldn’t care about that sort of thing. Now, as a 12th grader, he is taking differential equations at a university. I found a returned assignment on his bedroom floor the other day, and sure enough several points had been deducted for “failure to show all of your work”. </p>

<p>He was a little sheepish when I mentioned it, but I wouldn’t bet that the problem is solved.</p>

26

<p>NYmom:</p>

<p>I think the teacher is not used to gifted children. Being bored and daydreaming in class is par for the course for such kids. Do you read Hoagiesgifted.org? There is an article that many parents like to quote: Stephanie Tolan’s Is it A Cheetah? You may like to go into the meeting armed with some info you can glean on that site.</p>

<p>I agree that the important thing is not to let your child be miserable. If you can negotiate with the teacher and princpial and whatever team is assembled that he should be allowed to bring in more challenging work from home (and be exempted from the trivial stuff), that would be a great improvement. My S was restive until he was allowed to accelerate. At least, the teacher accepted that he was advanced in math; she just did not know how to cope, since math was not her strong suit. But we did provide enrichment outside the school, and that made life more tolerable for him. </p>

<p>PM me if you’d like some book recommendations.</p>

27

<p>NYMom, I know just how you feel. My son’s third grade teacher complained to me that he kept “making a mess of his desk” by creating things out of tape while he waited for the rest of the class to finish assignments. I suggested she send him to the library with a research task when he was bored, but was informed that was against the rules. After the fifth grade, it upset me so much to see him so bored with school that we bit the bullet and sent him to a very small independent school with much higher expectations. It really was a life-saver.</p>

28

<p>As an elementary teacher in NY State (Grades 1 &2), I’ll add that there was huge emphasis on getting kids to “show their work” (in calculations, that is) because in the Regents tests they’ll be given partial credit as long as someone can read their calculations and follow their reasoning. Isn’t that a bit better than getting an answer completely right or wrong if the final number is right or wrong? So maybe they are developing that habit with these earlier tests.</p>

<p>BUT, more importantly, I think Marite has caught the issue. I always observed taht the brighter the child, the more intuitive in Math. Our Math administrator came in to observe us teach and always wanted to hear the child whose answer was quick and correct (orally) to explain “What did you think about to get that answer?” so others could hear it. Ridiculous. They couldn’t. It came to them too quickly. If someone asked you, “What’s your brother’s name” and you answered instantly, wouldn’t it be silly to have to field a followup question, “How did you get that answer?” (Well, I have always heard people calling him that, and all his mail comes with that name on the envelope…")</p>

<p>I completely agree with Marite that more challenging problems will teach him the skill they’re trying to get at when he takes written NY State 4th Grade Math, 8th GraDE Math and h.s. Regents exams. </p>

<p>What they were looking for in that rubric explanation was some evidence that the child considered sequencing as well as place value. </p>

<p>And honestly, I could write a book about how parents land on “inexperienced first year teachers.” Give her some slack. You have no idea how good a teacher she will become. Just your bad luck to have her in her first year; nobody’s any good in the first year, with so much new curriculum to absorb. Ignore the behavior note, unless you begin to get a string of them. Then make a meeting. You can’t know the context, nor did she have even one extra nanosecond when writing the note to tell you of the context. Did he hop back from the water fountain in front of the group when she was reading everyone a story? Was it the tenth time she told him to walk? I agree that a happy 7-year-old hops…but I didn’t know how to incorporate that into my classroom in the first year out of teacher’s college!
He sounds absolutely delicious, a bright child who is learning to deal with school rules in groups. He’ll excel at Math, most likely, so what difference does it make whether he got a 2 or 3 in second grade on one question?
Many, many things about school are foolish. The best thing about most schools is you only have a teacher for a year,so whether great or not, they can only do limited damage. Kids rebound incredibly.
Focus on the positives about the teacher. If she’s young, enthusiastic and even pretty (wears scarves and stuff) the kids might like her. Don’t sour your kid by complaining about his teacher (probably you don’t in front of him; just vent here…)
It’s almost March, anyway.
I don’t mean to sound glib. I’ve spent tons of ink over poor teaching and poor teachers. I just want to urge you to keep it all in perspective.</p>

29

<p>You’re right, marite, that the teacher is not used to gifted children, or even children at all, really. I’m not even sure that my younger son is gifted, but he is bright enough to be bored with the work they are giving him. I found Hoagie’s a great resource when my older son was in the early elementary years, and I was trying to understand why he was so miserable in school. </p>

<p>The teacher has said that he can’t do the “enrichment” work because he is not finishing the regular work to her expectations! I will suggest that I provide the math. I can give him EPGY math at home.</p>

30

<p>My god…that’s like an essay in itsef.</p>

31

<p>Mollie, your fiance reminds me of my son. At the end of his senior year, he had a calculus exam that apparently was also important for some sort of outside evaluation, which he flunked. It had 2 questions: – one was to solve the problem presented, the other was to explain (in words) how he had come to the solution. </p>

<p>My son solved the problem easily and correctly …but for the explaining part, he wrote “I don’t know”.</p>

<p>(He was allowed to come in to redo the exam). </p>

<p>Even though math was always his easiest subject, my son has not pursued math in college. I don’t know whether that is because he finds math so easy that he thinks he would be bored by it, or whether it is the sum of all of his early school experiences that simply makes him unwilling to subject himself to more math “education.”</p>

32

<p>midmo, Our older son has applied to several independent HS for next year, including one that is among the most academically rigorous in the country. I’m biting my nails waiting for the decisions later this week. It is going to be a big financial drain, but he needs an independent school badly. We are not going to be able to manage independent school for the younger one for 8 years, although we will find a way to send him for HS. I feel fortunate that we can contemplate doing this at all. </p>

<p>I’ve always been irritated by the concept of the bright child entertaining himself by teaching the other children. I’ve always been very good in math, and it wasn’t until grad school (in physics) that I encountered a math concept that wasn’t completely intuitive. Until then, I’d always felt that I was born knowing math, and needed only to see something to be reminded that I knew it. There was never a process of learning, so I would not have been able to teach anyone else. (Of course, it was a problem for me to try to develop missing study skills at that advanced stage.)</p>

33

<p>I’m curious if your school system has a gifted program? If not, perhaps you can push for your S to do math as independent study. My S was pulled out of class and given a workbook, told to go at his own pace. At middle school, the teacher gave him his own math books to peruse.</p>

<p>My S and others had to leave the small private elementary school for public, where there was a gifted program. It is important to not let a child become bored. Its also helpful to not criticize teacher in front of the child. As in every aspect of life, its pleasanter to work with people one likes, but its not necessary. This year will soon pass.</p>

34

<p>There is something to be said for writing the steps, and explaining it</p>

<p>When I was young, I “got” the math, but I wasn’t sure why sometimes, if you understand</p>

<p>I know it can be frustrating for a bright child to have to write down all the “obvious” steps, but when doing writing, science, research, being able to slow down, and write down the thought processes is invaluable to even the smart kids</p>

<p>When my Ds were in 5th grade, they did a teddy bear project. On the surface it seemed silly- a 40 plus page report on Teddy Bears??!!</p>

<p>But during the PROCESS, I understood the project. It was ABOUT the process…being organized, keeping notes, keeping track of sources, being creative, time management</p>

<p>There were certain parts that had to be done, and then there was a kind of free section</p>

<p>My D added a section on real bears and conservation</p>

<p>My other D did a section on the history of Teddy Bear and America</p>

<p>But, back to the point, learning the process of how to put together a research project was the lesson, not learning about Teddy Bears</p>

<p>The next year when they had to do a huge country project, they had the tools in order to do the work, and I appreciate the TB project even more</p>

<p>And while they did the teddy bear project, they could focus on the skills needed to do a good report, while not being to worried about content so much they didn’t learn to source material, plan, etc</p>

<p>Sometimes learning a process is as important and the results and learning the process is important even for whiz kids</p>

35

<p>nymom,</p>

<p>You are describing my DS1 as a third grader (down to the reversed turtleneck shirts and missing names on papers). The third grade teacher refused to give him harder work, and harped on his “inadequacies” while he was explaining that 1,1,2,3,5,8… is indeed a mathematical sequence (she said it wasn’t). And, as the principal was walking by, he explained on the board how the Fibonacci series fits into Pascal’s Triangle. She made his life generally miserable at the same time she was telling me she’d never seen a kid who knew math like that.</p>

<p>He tested out of that school and into a public gifted program in 4th, where they accelerated him three years in math. The fourth grade teacher (teaching 7th grade math) complained that DS1 wasn’t showing all his work, and we told her, “Give him harder problems that he can’t do in his head.” In fifth grade, he got a teacher w/33 years of experience teaching extremely gifted middle and high school students for a combo Pre-Alg/Alg I class. He learned to show his work. (and funny how all those “social issues” disappeared when he was with peers by ability AND age…)</p>

<p>He is now a junior taking MV/DiffEq and Discrete Math, and plans to major in math. Absolutely loves proofs. Usually shows enough work. Still forgets to write his name on papers sometimes. :wink: He even manages to have a social life!</p>

<p>I highly recommend The Number Devil – it was DS’s favorite book at that age. Hoagies is a GREAT resource.</p>

36

<p>paying, I have had much experience at this point with teachers, and I feel confident in saying that this particular young woman will never be much good at it. There have been a string of issues, my son has cried many evenings about school and has “stomachaches” in the morning, and I’ve had a couple of meetings with this teacher, where there was little communication. She has her own view of things, and is not open to any other view. Worst of all, when I brought up a concern I had about a possible deficiency in my son’s reading comprehension, she blew me off with, “He’s in my top reading group.” Questions about what qualifies him to be in the top reading group, how his reading was assessed, etc., were deflected so that she could talk about all the ways that he does not conform. (Believe me, this child is not a noncomformist or odd in any way.) I realize that it is only one year, and I also should not complain too much since the teacher he had last year was truly a master teacher, and the 4th grade teachers are all strong, but the present looms large in an 8-year-old’s mind.</p>

37

<p>Interesting thread. My math-brained daughter had this issue come up on a final two weeks ago. She received partial credit for her explanation and said she knew it would be too short but duh, it was so simple and it’s not like an essay for English where you can add some extra adjectives and make it more flowery.</p>

38

<p>Luckily, my fiance is less snotty now that the math he uses is much harder. ;)</p>

39

<p>Bookworm, you must be kidding. A gifted program? That would be a tacit admission that not everyone is equally talented. Not only does our district not have a gifted program, they have heterogeneous (by ability) classes all the way through middle school. There is a policy that the teachers “differentiate” curriculum and homework, but I can count on the fingers of one hand, having several left over, the number of teachers I’ve encountered who are able to do this. And some teachers won’t do it, believing it to be unfair to give some students different work. (If you detect some sarcasm and bitterness, you aren’t imagining it!)</p>

<p>CountingDown, I’m glad your son found the right school. My older son has been accelerated 2 years in math (they were willing to put him in the HS for math and science), but he still found the pace too slow and the treatment too superficial. He asked to do EPGY math instead, but they refused. He loved The Number Devil, too.</p>

40

<p>

</p>

<p>I frequently see parents say this. But I would have LOVED to teach the other kids in my class (and in fact did that once in a while, incidentally) if only I had been given the chance. I do not think that today’s forms of “collaborative learning” really fit the bill, as I most often hear actual practice described as the laziest, least prepared students copying answers from the most prepared students, with no one doing much explaining or thinking about the subject. But, yeah, I would ask the kid, first of all, if the kid would be happy having an opportunity to explain things to classmates. And if the kid would like that, I as a parent would not stand in the kid’s way, nor would I let a teacher stand in the way.</p>