46% Combined Fed, State and Local Tax Rate

@ 99,

Sure. Very possible.

That is why I don’t think one needs charts and graphs to understand certain basic things. However, while what you say is possible, the reality is that MOST people will work harder with the incentive in place that they get to keep more.

Now, maybe popcorn guy, the poster who had issues with that earlier, will show up again and disprove that with charts and graphs but, unless I am crazy, that sort of thing doesn’t seem really controversial to me. Regarding the Laffer Curve I’ve heard it but I can’t actually say I have a clue what it suggests.

“Economics is not my field.”

That is obvious.

@GoNoles85, really?

Ok. Get back to us after you talk to the economics professors.

@GoNoles85:

Apologies—when you used the word fact you were attributing the idea of something being a fact to someone else on the thread (which they also hadn’t said was a fact, but whatever).

However, considering your frequent use of words like “obvious”, I’d say the claim of your assertion’s factuality has pretty clearly been made by you.

Oh. My.

As previously mentioned, I’m neither an economist or a political scientist. I’ll add to that that I’m pretty much as dumb as a sack of hammers. I know what the Laffer Curve is.

So, if the marginal tax is raised by 1%, say 39% to 40%, I become uninterested in the 60 cents that I would keep instead of the 61 cents? I’ve never quite understood why I was interested in 61 cents of earnings but 60 cents is beneath me.

I am an engineer by training, but I do know what the Laffer curve is.

Oh, by the way, could someone please tell me if we are on the left side or the right side? While you are at it, please locate the knee. Thanks…

@gonoles:
The laffer curve is an economic theory, usually graphically represented, that shows government revnue on the Y Axis versus tax rates on the X. The basic theory is that that there is a rate of taxation that maximizes government revenue (ie incoming tax revenue) somewhere between 0% taxation and 100%. It is very similar in concept to price versus demand curves in theory, where there is a sweet spot where you maximize demand at a good price point.

The Laffer curve was used to justify the supply side economic theory that has been the dominant part of conservative political thought for the past almost 40 years. In theory, there is a point at which the stimulous caused by tax cuts would pay for themselves, so if let’s say you cut the top tax rate by 10 percentage points, which would hypothetically decrease government tax revenue by let’s say 100 billion dollars, it would trigger an increase in economic activity that would generate new tax revenue to balance out or even exceed the loss. The reality is that as far as I know, none of the tax cuts done like that over the past 30 years or so since the 86 tax act were revenue neutral, every tax cut has ended up leaving the US in even more deficit spending. Yes, if the government cut spending to match the lost revenue, it would be revenue neutral, but there is a catch to that politicians don’t talk about, when you cut government spending you are depressing the economy, cutting government spending retards economic growth (for the very reason that government spending can stimulate the economy), and there is pretty good evidence from what I know that government spending in some cases is a lot stronger than cutting taxes.

The real problem with the laffer curve if that while we know exactly what happens at each end (0% taxation, 100% taxation, 0 revenue),in the middle has proven to be mostly conjecture.Tax cuts are a tool to stimulate the economy, but one of the problems is all tax cuts are not made equal. For example, cutting personal income taxes doesn’t always stimulate demand the way they claim it will. In theory, tax cuts to the top rate taxpayers would free up money that can be used in capital formation (ie in investing in companies, for example a bond issue or an IPO used to expand operations or create a new company), but the problem is often the tax cuts aimed at the upper income people don’t do that, either it goes to stimulating demand for luxury goods (that in the scheme of things, often do little to grow GDP or jobs, for a number of reasons, impacts too few people) or they invest in things like hedge funds or esteric trading in derivatives, which stimulates very little.

It has a mirror with government spending, doing a ton of government spending may not do much, depending on where it is aimed, and there can be too much. I always laugh when I hear someone tell me that FDR’s New Deal didn’t end the depression (which is correct) and then they tell me “WWII ended the depression”…WWII was the new deal on steroids, it was the largest government stimulus program in history (around 800 billion in 1940’s dollars)…in that case it worked, because it was aimed literally at the heart of the problem.

The reality of the laffer curve and other such ideas is that they are economic models and projections that are extremely difficult to prove out in the real world. If the laffer curve worked, then the reagan era tax cuts should have left us with budget surpluses, but it didn’t, and the defense is “we should have cut spending”., even though the cuts alone were promoted as being government tax revenue positive. Someone who likewise shows models of government spending and advocating large swaths of that, is doing much the same thing, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

One of the reasons that people’s perceptions, especially in the working and middle class, about the bit of taxes is that wages over the past 40 years in real world terms have declined, but taxes have done up. If your salary was going up, tax increases might cause grumbles but could be absorbed, but taxes, especially sales taxes and excise taxes, basically further decline living standards for people whose wages are not increasing. The total tax bill for people of more modest means has gone up a lot in the past 30 years as a percentage of income, the 86 tax redo got rid of a lot of deductions more modest income earners had, and then to make up for revenue governments have turned to regressive taxes, like sales taxes, that hit those at the more modest levels harder, to make up for it.

Even economists disagree. Don’t worry.

@ 107,

Excellent post. Now, if I may, even as a lay person in economics comment let me say this.

The Laffer curve was used to justify the supply side economic theory that has been the dominant part of conservative political thought for the past almost 40 years. In theory, there is a point at which the stimulous caused by tax cuts would pay for themselves, so if let’s say you cut the top tax rate by 10 percentage points, which would hypothetically decrease government tax revenue by let’s say 100 billion dollars, it would trigger an increase in economic activity that would generate new tax revenue to balance out or even exceed the loss. The reality is that as far as I know, none of the tax cuts done like that over the past 30 years or so since the 86 tax act were revenue neutral, every tax cut has ended up leaving the US in even more deficit spending.

-Of course conservatives want income tax rates to be lowered and even if conservatives used supply side economics as the basis for wanting tax rates to decline and even if SS economics didn’t work or didn’t work as well as they claimed doesn’t mean that reducing income tax rates wasn’t a darn good idea anyway. It still sets up the right incentives for people too want to earn more and start businesses and so forth.

-The post a few above yours uses the contrived example of keeping 61 cents as opposed to 60 cents to suggest that incentives are not much different. Okay, maybe a $.01 isn’t a big enough change but going from keeping only 50% of one’s earnings up to keeping 60% or 65% might do the trick.

-The less the government takes it, the less the governments wastes.

-That is another reason to pay less taxes from the conservative point of view.

-So it isn’t just Laffer Curve charts and graphs that would make someone want lower income tax rates.

-And even if we contrive the example with small changes it is still changes in the right direction.

-And it is entirely possibly to decrease government revenues AND decrease government spending, if only we had the political will to do so. Both things would be good for the economy. That is a new economic theory called the 85gonoles curve.

@ 107,

For example, cutting personal income taxes doesn’t always stimulate demand the way they claim it will. In theory, tax cuts to the top rate taxpayers would free up money that can be used in capital formation (ie in investing in companies, for example a bond issue or an IPO used to expand operations or create a new company), but the problem is often the tax cuts aimed at the upper income people don’t do that, either it goes to stimulating demand for luxury goods (that in the scheme of things, often do little to grow GDP or jobs, for a number of reasons, impacts too few people) or they invest in things like hedge funds or esteric trading in derivatives, which stimulates very little.

-All good points and all stuff I’ve heard before.

-And none of that means supply side economics is a failed theory.

-It just means that what was claimed by conservatives was overblown.

-That may or may be true, I don’t remember every claim made by conservatives, but none of that disproves that lower income taxes creates the right incentives to people to want to earn more.

-I am not looking at it from how it affects government revenues or government spending, I am looking at it purely as a way for the right incentives to be set up in a free enterprise economy so that the more you earn, the more you keep, now if that is a bad thing, then I like bad things.

[quote]
The less the government takes it, the less the governments wastes./quote

See, trying to get complicated stuff like macroeconomics down to bumper-sticker slogans is part of the problem. Yeah, lines like the above sound good, but where’s the data t back it up? Common sense might back it up, but that isn’t data—common sense is (very, very often) spectacularly wrong on a lot of simpler things than the way national economies work.

(And not really trying to single you out on this, @GoNoles85—this is something all sides of sociopolitical and economic debates tend to be guilty of.)

@ 107,

I can’t find it right now but I think you also commented on what happens when tax rates are cut on the middle class not just the high earners. I’m not sure why I can’t find it now, I think I read it here, but I’ve been surfing around all day so maybe I read that someone else.

Anyway, here is my point.

Sure, if you cut taxes on the rich they might not use the savings for capital formation they might just buy a new yacht. Sure, of course, that makes sense.

But, what happens when you cut taxes on the middle class? They might just use it for little things. If they do, once again, the tax cut didn’t actually stimulate the economy other than on additional consumer spending (which is a good enough reason to do it, it isn’t the governments money, why shouldn’t the people decide what to do with it?).

That might happen in the short run but over the long haul you would also get some of the capital formation/business investment type stuff also. The 86 had provisions in it, which I mentioned earlier, that was focused on capital expenditures and it certainly helped set up the growth of the 90’s. If the 86 tax cut had not of happened who is to say we wouldn’t have had economic declines though out the 90’s instead of the growth we did have?

@ 111,

No problem dfdb. I dish it out so I ought to be big enough to take it as the old saying goes. Back at you, what is wrong with bumper sticker slogans? That isn’t really a problem is it? Saying you need prove/evidence muddies up the water and is as big a problem as trying to simplify things down to bumper sticker size.

Simply saying, and believing, that lower taxes creates the right incentives and giving the government less, generally speaking is a good thing, is not necessarily wrong just because the “data” doesn’t back it up. Not all 350 million Americans are going to be economics experts but that does not devalue their thoughts on what economic policy ought to be does it?

Details, details…

That would make the society healthier. I don’t get that people are so obsessed with passing their wealth to their children that they don’t see what it might do to the society.

Details? Only one study is done, it looks like,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/jimmy-carter-is-correct-t_b_7922788.html

@Igloo, I like many of your posts. I wish you never told me patients wouldn’t pay doctors under Obamacare. :slight_smile:

GONoles85, do you know the gdp equation? What equals gdp?

“Simply saying, and believing, that lower taxes creates the right incentives and giving the government less, generally speaking is a good thing, is not necessarily wrong just because the “data” doesn’t back it up.”

Say what?

If the data doesn’t back it up, why would simply saying and believing it to be so be a good thing?

bee,

Does the data rule out the 86 tax reforms did not contribute to the economic growth of the 90’s? Does it? With certainty? Has it been proven that lowering federal income taxes doesn’t promote economic growth?

No, it hasn’t.

Even if a rich guy buys a yacht instead of making a capital business investment it is still good for the economy.

You can then turn around and say that the revenue the government lost from cutting taxes wasn’t reimbursed by the rich guy buying the yacht, that might be true, but I am not worried about government revenues, as I said it isn’t the government’s money in the first place.

The concept that rich guys use tax savings to start businesses was never my point in the first place. As I mentioned before, who is to say what would have happened to the economy in the 90’s without the 86 tax reforms? There might have been a sustained recession without them. Instead we had growth and part of the reason we had growth was the tax reforms.

I am not conflating one issue, government revenues, with another issue, creating the right incentives for people to work and keep more of what they earn.