5% of patients account for half of health care spending

<p>Since this thread is off topic anyway I will throw this in. A good film about end of life care (as well as a father/son relationship) is The Barbarian Invasion. It is in French and won an Academy Award for Best Foreign Film.</p>

<p>When I watched this film it was a real eye opener as to end of life care even though it takes place in Canada.</p>

<p>I had not thought about all the end of life issues and how far family members have to go to push for the care of their loved ones - even to the extent of obtaining illegal drugs.</p>

<p>The fact that a relatively few people account for most health costs is not surprising, it is the basis in fact of how group health care plans of any kind work, that the big cost risk is spread over a lot of people, thus a younger, healthy person pays into the system and uses very little, while an older or chronically ill person uses a lot more. It is one of the reason the idea of people buying their own insurance is problematic, because to an insurance company that is a pool of 1 person (they don’t look at all their policies as a group plan, in other words) and you pay for it (last I checked, if you tried to get a family plan on your own here in the NYC region, it was in the mid 25k range…). </p>

<p>One of the problem with medicare is because it represents a group composed of relatively high risk people, older people, so the costs tend to be higher, and even though everyone pays into it through payroll taxes because the payees are all likely to have more health costs it isn’t the same as a group plan would (in other words, the beneficiaries are a lot more likely to need expensive care then members of a standard group plan). </p>

<p>Containing costs in health care is difficult because it is very unique and you run into moral issues not found elsewhere. For example, you have someone with severe dementia and they go into cardiac arrest and they don’t have a DNR order, so you revive them, at a cost of as much as 100k…does that make sense? If someone is in advanced cancer, do you continue expensive chemo and radiation or do you make them comfortable in hospice care? And do you force people to make those choices? Likewise, if doctors allowed real competition, would you shop around for the lowest price on a heart bypass or would you look for the best doctor/hospital you could? I see this all the time, there are cut rate laser eye centers charging like 400 bucks an eye, but would you trust your eyes to a cut rate place that works on volume? </p>

<p>One of the biggest problems we face with our health care system IMO is that it treats disease, rather then prevents it, a lot of the most expensive diseases are lifestyle ones, things like obesity, smoking, pollution, bad nutrition, stress all play a role in why people get major diseases but very little is spent on prevention, other then things like the food pyramid and the like. Government subsidies in the food industry tend to do the opposite of promoting good health, for example, subsidies for the corn growers and agribusinesses makes high fructose corn syrup dirt cheap and it is used as filler in a range of processed foods many people eat; likewise, meat is subsidized for the producers, and it means cheap, fatty fast foods and processed foods, there is a lot more support for that kind of food then towards getting healthy options on people’s plates or making more healthy food as convenient and cheap as the fast/processed food many people eat.</p>

<p>And this shows with the older population, one of the problems is that while people are living longer, thanks to modern medicine, the quality of the older years are not necessarily keeping up. I know this sounds horrible (and it is), but thanks to modern medicine people who would have died off in their 60’s and 70’s a couple of generations ago keep on living into their 80’s, but the problem is those last couple of decades are full of expensive medical intervention and other services like nursing homes, rather then representing someone active and moving about. People talk about raising the retirement age as the population has gotten older, but in reality how many people are healthy enough to keep working into their 70’s? How many by the time the hit retirement age of 65 are already health challenged? Again, I realize it is a horrible thing to say, but is extending life like that when someone is basically not leading a productive life or able to function a good thing?
Think about the Terri Schiavo case, where she was basically kept alive artificially, requiring constant medical support that is expensive, where her brain was basically reduced to a brain stem, what do you do then?</p>

<p>Again, I am not giving answers to these questions, I am pointing out some of the fundamental questions we have to ask ourselves about medical care, and despite what some pundits say, it isn’t easy. Free market health insurance won’t solve this alone or at all, because part of the problem is how medicine itself is practiced, and there are real questions that are horrible to answer, about when do you step back and let nature take its course and when is it worth keeping going? </p>

<p>My point is to highlight something I figured out 30+ years ago when I was debating health care policy in High School as part of a debate team, that there are no simple answers or solutions to the problem, health insurance is part of the problem, but it is only 1 part of it and most of the solutions to health care I see fail to address basic issues of the cost of health care and so forth.</p>

<p>As long as private health insurance is part of the problem, one simply can’t get to the other parts. Reduce administrative expenses from more than 20% to under 3%, and all of a sudden there are funds for innovation, for preventive care, and for initiatives aimed at making older people more productive. </p>

<p>Look - the Canadian system isn’t perfect (and it differs from province to province - all I know is British Columbia). But they spend a fraction per capita of what we do, for (in the experience of my business) much higher quality of care. (Most of their difficulties would be taken care of with simply allocating just a little bit more - still a fraction of what we have here.) They can effectively institute quality initiatives, provide integrated holistic care in managing chronic conditions, they don’t have emergency rooms packed with patients who really need primary care but can’t get it, they don’t have people bankrupted by medical costs, and they can control pharmaceutical expenses (which is why we had WEEKLY buses of U.S. residents going from near my office to Canada to receive prescriptions for and purchase their drugs). </p>

<p>There really ARE easy solutions. Doesn’t mean that they are political viable, but it really isn’t that complicated. Medicare works, and we need Medicare for all.</p>

<p>We mean many different things when talking about end-of-life care. There’s all available measures, throw everything you’ve got at it care, and there’s palliative measures only care. Even with more and more people signing health care directives saying that they don’t want extraordinary measures taken, we still have a medical care system that pushes towards heroic measures. Ask people where they’d like to die, at home (with hospice care) or in a hospital. Home wins by a landslide, but that’s not what plays out in the real world. </p>

<p>Make it easier for people to choose what type of end of life care they really want, and the amount of money spent on end of life care will drop.</p>

<p>The easy solutions don’t occur because those that benefit from the health system of the US do not want to give up those benefits.</p>

<p>Millions and billions of dollars change hands…those that profit are not going to give that up. People don’t want to give up $5,000 of tax breaks and people are expected to give up millions of profits from the US health care system. Not going to happen.</p>

<p>The only way there are going to be changes is if power is taken away. That’s hard to do.</p>

<p>I’m with Kluge on this. BIG difference between saving a 57 year old with another good 20-25 years left versus an 85 year old just waiting for something to put the last nail in the coffin. Spending so much to extend an 85 year life to 85.5 years with the last 6 months in and out of the hospital and miserable is absurd.</p>

<p>Related to this thread (and some advice from a health care provider.)</p>

<p>Take the time to determine who your power-of-attorney is, set up a living will, establish with your loved ones what you do and do not want done when you fall ill (and we all will, it’s only a matter of when) and how much you want done. Do you want CPR? Do you want intubation? Do you want your heart to be kept beating if you’ll be sedated and ventilator-dependent? </p>

<p>From my experience so far, Americans are incredibly reluctant to talk about the eventuality and inevitability of death. And while they aren’t able to talk about it for themselves, family members are even less capable of discussing it when the moment’s at hand. Talking about things like that well ahead of time, like say, when you’re in your 50s and relatively healthy, saves everyone involved a lot of heartache and stress. </p>

<p>I have my own opinions, but I tried to keep this post as apolitical and even-handed as I could.</p>

<p>When I was 48 or so I ended up in the hospital…and a nurse asked if I wanted to sign a piece of paper that said, “No Resuscitation”.</p>

<p>I said, “Are you kidding me? I am 48 years old. I’m not going to sign that piece of paper.”</p>

<p>One thing I learned as I got older is don’t judge older people until you get there yourself.</p>

<p>I have no idea what it is like to be 80 so who am I to judge?</p>

<p>I am shocked at what 55 feels like…and I feel good.</p>

<p>My doc says I am in better condition than 90% of men my age (61). OMG! We must be in awful condition!</p>

<p>Lol…</p>

<p>All the better to talk about it now, when everyone can be rational. You’re one car accident or unexpected heart attack away from a change in viewpoint. We just readmitted a guy this week who’s nonverbal, ventilator-dependent, and suffering from a chronic UTI that’s resistant to pretty much everything, and his family won’t let go. We keep on treating whatever caused the latest dip, and sending him back to the nursing home, each time a little bit worse than before, holding off death so that his family can feel like they did the right thing.</p>

<p>dstark, signing a DNR isn’t so much a matter of age as of circumstance. A hale and healthy 70 year old might not want to sign a DNR prior to some routine hospital procedure. A 40 year old with a terminal diagnosis, tired of chemo and radiation, might insist on signing one.</p>

<p>^Exactly this. When you reach your late thirties, it’s pretty much mileage that determines health, so to speak, not age. There are some old fifty-year-olds and some young octogenarians.</p>

<p>SlitheyTove, I understand…but not only did I not have a terminal illness…but my issue was temporary. As soon as I got out of the hospital…I was healthy…and have been ever since. I had an irregular heartbeat…due to stess and maybe I was slightly dehydrated. I could not get this whacked out woman out of my house…I think she had a form of autism. She did not understand my cues that were telling her to leave. Cues like…“Time to go”. She would not leave my house for 4 hours. She only left because I fainted and my wife insisted I go to the hospital. </p>

<p>Of course…I can’t change my insurance because I have a precondition that no longer exists. Great health care system we have. ;)</p>

<p>

dstark, I don’t think it’s a matter of judging so much as a matter of societal values. If a bedridden, senescent, terminally ill 90 year old wants to spend his every last dime fighting off death for another day, that’s a personal decision and it’s not my prerogative to judge it. But when our society elects to pick up the tab for that - at the expense of education, health care for the young, higher taxes, etc., that’s a societal decision, and I think it’s a matter that merits rational discussion. </p>

<p>I don’t think that society should pick up the exorbitant expense of heroic medical measures for everyone past some point in life. The exact details are subject to discussion, but I think there should be a limit to how much public money is spent on non-palliative medical care for the elderly. I know there will be lots of anecdotal objections to that, but I’m not talking about spending your own money - I’m talking about spending our kids’ money. (And I’m as old as Mini. :))</p>

<p>I understand Kluge. Paying for those last days… i might agree with you. I used to for sure…but as I get older…I am not quite as sure.</p>

<p>When I read things like “I would never want to live like that”, well…maybe.</p>

<p>I went to a funeral this year of an 84 year old who died of cancer and he never wanted to
die…even at the end. I would have thought…“enough is enough”. But then again…like I said…i’m not there.</p>

<p>I agree with Kluge regarding exhorbitant heroic end of life expenses - instead of giving my dad a new hip (advanced Parkinsons and dementia) and maybe a few more months of a horrible quality of life, I would rather that money be spent on immunizations, diabetes PREVENTION, asthma management programs, screening for XXX, research to prevent or cure XXXX, teachers and schools, day programs for disabled people, public transportation, libraries, rehab/psych for vets, etc.
IMHO, the doctors at the nursing home spent more time talking about what they could do and not enough time having patients and families consider what they should do.<br>
Problem is it’s a slippery slope. My dad’s case was clear. Dstark’s case was clear on the other end of the spectrum. It’s the area in the middle that is difficult. But, there is only so much money and we as a society need to allocate it.</p>

<p>If 5% of patients account for half of health care spending, so what? </p>

<p>If these elderly patients are getting necessary care to extend quality lives or make life better, good. </p>

<p>The focus as far as saving health care dollars should be on preventable health care costs. Preventing the illness/injury in the first place. Then making sure that treatment isn’t wasteful, unnecessary or redundant. </p>

<p>I visit my MIL assisted living place frequently. Most of the residents are women. Some of them LIKE visiting the doctor. It’s something to do. It’s an outing. It’s a chance to have someone focused on them. They get their little questionable skin tags removed or they get to talk about some new ache or twinge. Doctors should discourage this type of thing.</p>

<p>I think there’s a certain amount of hyperbole going around here in the claims that we don’t fund schools because we spend so much on Medicare. The total Medicare budget for FY '12 is $468 billion. That’s not chump change but it’s only about 12.6% of total federal spending. It provides health care for 47.5 million seniors and disabled persons, at an average annual cost of about $9800 per person. That doesn’t strike me as exorbitant, especially given the fact that the populations it’s serving can be expected to have higher-than-average health costs when compared to the population as a whole. And the Medicare hospitalization program is fully paid for out of dedicated payroll taxes; the expensive unfunded parts are the supplemental medical insurance and the prescription drug benefit.</p>

<p>As for K-12 education: well, lest you forget, under our Constitution that’s primarily the responsibility of the states and local units of government. The federal government does provide some supplemental support—but the federal share has actually been growing, not shrinking, so I don’t see how you can fairly conclude Medicare is crowding out funding for education. </p>

<p>Medicaid may be another matter. State Medicaid budgets have been growing, and that, along with the rising costs of incarcerating prisoners, is putting some pressure on state budgets in competition with K-12 education and (especially) higher education. But Medicaid isn’t Medicare. I think people are blaming the wrong program.</p>

<p>TatinG, you faked me out…</p>

<p>I thought you were going to go the other way and support the elderly’s visits with their doctors. Psychologically…might keep these older people going…</p>

<p>I really doubt these visits are that costly…are they?</p>