9/23/2007 - Ken Burns new documentary: The War

Colleges & Universities Service Academy Parents
41

<p>“If we had to fight that war today, we would all be speaking German.
Not that the military forces wouldn’t do their job, (they would), but the civilian population as a whole would not make the necessary sacrifices.”</p>

<p>PLEEEEZZZZZZEEEEE!!! That is an absurd statement.
Note the SIGNIFICANT differences between today and WW2</p>

<p>The Government DRAFTED 10 MILLION men in WW2----that fact doesn’t diminish their sacrifice, it just illustrates that a draft was needed because while enlistments were good they were NOT sufficient on their own by a long shot.
Today the the US military is “all voluntary” despite being in a global war with the majority of our ground forces committed for long periods of time and into the forseeable future, and STILL no draft.</p>

<p>When WW2 broke out the government went on the “offensive” and made the case EARLY on that sacrifices would be made by EVERYONE. Then they implemented the methodology for those sacrifices.
After 9/11 the extent of the civilian population’s sacrifice has been inconveniences during travel. Had a draft been reinstated on 9/12 and a 9/11 tax been passed the same day to help fund the war the President and the government would have had OVERWHELMING support. Poor policy decisions led to what we ended up with.</p>

<p>Postulating that a WW2 type war couldn’t be prosecuted successfully with TODAY’s generation forget the HUGE Republican led isolationist efforts of the mid to late 1930’s that continued right up until Pearl Harbor. In fact, for nearly a century leading right up to and then again following WW2 isolationism was a Republican standard of foreign policy. Pearl Harbor and America’s entry into WW2 changed that in the same way that 9/11 united all American’s for a time. In one case the opportunity was seized, in the other it was squandered in much the same way the Nazi Government blew it when they tried to prosecute the war early on (the first 3 years) in a way that would not inconvenience the population in the way of the availablility of goods and services, or by asking the German female population to work in the war industry. By the time the German’s announced “Total War” to their population in 1943 it was the beginning of the end.</p>

<p>Wars are not won or lost because of the population or the media. They are lost because governments fail to seize the moment when it presents itself.
Today’s generation is no different.</p>

<p>“There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we are still in Iraq and the mission hasn’t been accomplished because of the politicians and media.”</p>

<p>I think its been pretty well established now that we are still in Iraq because the Administration’s Policy makers did NOT listen to the generals about the needed troop strength. The current successes of the Surge are beginning to illustrate that particular point.</p>

<p>One other major difference between today and WW2 is the role of our allies. Without the tremendous sacrifices borne by our allies (yes even the Russians) it is doubtful we could ever has gone into Europe to defeat Hitler. In fact, without those allies I doubt a War in Europe could have even been prosecuted–we would have been forced to deal solely with the Japanese. Its interesting to note that when the President declared War on Japan, no mention of Germany was made. In fact, we did not declare war on Germany until Hitler declared war on us a couple of days later (Dec 11). Hitler was under no obligation under his treaty with Japan to go to war with the US by virtue of the fact that he didn’t even know about the Japanese attack until it had already occurred. Good ole Adolf stepped into that one all by himself. I am sure War would have eventually come against the Germans, but most Americans assume it started with Pearl Harbor—it did not. The whole point being that WW2 was successfully prosecuted because we had our Allies and our superior industrial ability. The Global War on Terror needs that same kind of world wide support. We had it right after 9/11. Poor policy decisions have again squandered much of that “capital”.</p>

42

<p>“Absurd” maybe to you.</p>

<p>Not to me. I see the selfishness of people today, only caring about themselves, not the good of the country.</p>

<p>You can continue your rant about the military and Republican bashing (not sure what that has to with anything), I am talking about civilian sacrifice that went on during WWII that WOULD NOT happen today.</p>

<p>Too many “moveon.org” types would be whining and crying about every little sacrifice they would have to make in order to win the war. They would be funding the opposition party, buying ad-time on TV ridiculing the military and the leadership. Public opinion would sway to their leftist anti-war Cindy Sheehan protests. Senators and Congressmen more worried about getting re-elected by taking the floor of Congress to bash instead of support. WWII would not have been won had the exact same things been done in 1942.</p>

<p>ACLU lawsuits would pile up and pile up. “How dare you tell me when I can drive my car”, and “how dare you tell me when I can buy sugar” etc.</p>

<p>PLEEEEZZZZZZEEEEE!!! :rolleyes: You can “PLEEEEZZZZZZEEEEE!!!” all you want to. It doesn’t change the facts. (And you would be using the German word “bitte” instead.</p>

43

<p>I don’t bash Republicans–I’ve been a registered republican for nearly 30 years. The history of the republican party as isolationist in the 1930’s and post WW2 is not bashing, its a fact. Roosevelt had to pull out every trick in the book to keep the war supplies going to the Russians and British prior to Pearl Harbor.<br>
I think maybe people tend to listen too much to talk radio and talk TV. They need to spend less time listening to Rhandi Rhodes from Air America, or Olberman on MSNBC, or Rush and Fox TV, and start to think for themselves. They are mistaking entertainment for historical context and factual information.</p>

<p>The public is being spoon fed all this dribble about the “drive-by media”, 9/11 conspiracies, etc etc and eating it up because it is easier to be told what to think than to actually do it. The extremes of both major party’s ought to be ashamed and are complicit in the dumbing-down of America.</p>

<p>Frankly, if people around the world thought in the 1930’s exactly as they think now, we probably could have avoided the Nazis, the Facists, Japanese Imperialism and WW2 all together. People now are much less tolerant as a whole of totalitarianism than they were then. Iam still amazed today how a “western”, “christian” people like the Germans, ended up being the instrument of an such evil ideology. But then, look at the history of Western Europe and the way the Jews were treated for hundreds of years. Yep, Western Civilization has enough skeletons in the closet that we need to learn from, not hide from.</p>

<p>The people of this nation have stepped up EVERY time it has been asked of them. It was ready to do the same on 9/11. Someone forgot to ask.</p>

44

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe you live in the wrong part of the country.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Yep.</p>

45

<p>Back to the movie. I teach high school Algebra. My students are the marginal, the ones who have flunked the EOC several times. I am their last hope to graduate. Most pass. I think this series has had more impact on my kids than anything else they have ever seen.</p>

46

<p>usna69,
I don’t get the connection between algebra and “The War.” What are you doing that contributes to your students’ success? Not flogging them are you?</p>

47

<p>Prior to our entry into WWII, Japanese-Americans controlled virtually all of California’s fruit and vegetable distribution; a multi-million dollar business that has since grown into a multi-billion dollar business. One point I’d like to add is that there was a financial incentive to put Japanese-Americans in internment camps and confiscate their businesses and property. Overnight, their control of a vast portion of California agriculture evaporated, never to be regained. Once released from the camps years later, many Japanese-Americans started over again as khaki-wearing gardeners, work we often see undocumented workers performing today. However, through hard work and discipline these folks weren’t mowing lawns for long and the majority of their children worked hard in school and graduated from college. In fact, I have a friend whose parents were actually kicked out of an internment camp and sent back to Japan. After the war the father worked as an interpreter during the American occupation of Japan because he could speak both English and Japanese. The family came back to the US as soon as possible. My friend graduated from UCLA, Hastings Law School, and became the youngest Asian federal judge in US history. His Japanese-American wife rose up the ranks of the INS to become a commissioner. I’m jealous because they both retired at 55 with full federal pensions!</p>