<p>ID said in post 118:</p>
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</p>
<p>I heartily agree. I would like to see this in the USN&WR rankings!</p>
<p>
Here, berurah, I do SO agree with you. As I told in my story, our family learned of our child’s brush with imminent danger due to an unpaid Emergency Room bill. This bill was close to $1000. Although it may seem to some beside the point, we made it clear to our child that this bill was child’s to pay. Believe me, it made a serious dent in child’s summer earnings’ savings. I had friends say to me, “Do you really think Child should have to pay the WHole thing? Maybe split it with Child?”</p>
<p>My view was this. As many have said here, we hope that a brush with death, like this one, will lead to a wake-up call, a lesson learned. Child tells us that this is the case. But any extra insurance H and I can provide that our child feels the full consequences of such a poor choice, such a foolish bevior is a path we will follow. If watching $1000 slip away in an instant will help our child think twice - just in case our child is foolish enough to let the memory of the life-and-death consequences fade away - then we want to make sure our child feels this consequence as well.</p>
<p>We made the payment of this bill a ritual. When our child came home for winter break, we sat down and watched child write the first check ever on the new checking account. Address the envelope. WAlk it to the mailbox. Subtract the amount from the account balance. Feel the pain. Help our child pay this ER bill? Make it a little easier for the “poor dear?” Not a snowball’s chance in he**.</p>
<p>I agree with butforthegraceofs point that there are really two conversations going on here: first, there are the abusive drinkers who are habitual and destructive. No sane or thoughtful person condones this type of behavior. These kids put themselves at risk, make other peoples lives miserable and reflect badly on their college. Some posters have strong opinions about certain high schools and certain sports being cesspools of anti-social behavior which I dont fully agree with, but I certainly agree that abusive drinkers (or druggers or sexual aggressors) are a menace to themselves and to their community! I think the application process attempts to weed them out through recommendations and counselors comments but its not foolproof. Id like to see colleges apply more forceful and consistent pressure to force these kids to comply with social norms, but I accept that its difficult to determine how far the administration should extend its role as parent and police force.</p>
<p>The other category is the inexperienced drinker who binges and overdoes. Same for kids experimenting with dangerous drugs or promiscuous sex. Sometimes the results are painful but a good learning experience. Sometimes the results are tragic. To me, this is the biggest risk group and the most difficult to tackle. </p>
<p>College and the teen age years are a time of experimentation and for many, rebellion. [My personal opinion is that everyone rebels at some point in life and its better to get it over with at 18 than at 40!] Its not just alcohol but also drugs and sex that can have disastrous and tragic affects sometimes in combination of all three. I went to Big Party U in the swinging 60s and believe me, Ive seen the worst.</p>
<p>Bad things happen at good schools ALL of them. Bad things happen to good kids that make bad decisions not all of them, thankfully, but all of us know someone someone we would characterize as a good kid whose parents cared – whose life has been irreversibly altered by random, non-habitual substance abuse. We cant be there with our kids 24/7. We can only instill the right values and make sure that should they or their friends find themselves in over their heads that there is a failsafe system to rescue them.</p>
<p>
butforthegraceofgod~
We would have done the same thing.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>"As I told in my story, our family learned of our child’s brush with imminent danger due to an unpaid Emergency Room bill. This bill was close to $1000. Although it may seem to some beside the point, we made it clear to our child that this bill was child’s to pay. "</p>
<p>In principle, I agree with what you did because I definitely believe that people should be held accountable for the consequences of their behavior.</p>
<p>However, in this case what concerns me is the possibility that despite being held responsible this time, your child continues to drink, gets in possible medical trouble again, but refuses to go to the hospital for fear of having to shell out another $1,000.</p>
<p>When I was younger, I knew a college student who almost had to be dragged to the hospital by friends when she was having severe abdominal pain due to what ended up being an ovarian cyst. She didn’t want to have to pay a hospital bill.</p>
<p>Anyway, I have great fear that your strategy could backfire either for your child or your child’s friends who hear about it and make unwise decisions not to take impaired friends to ERs.</p>
<p>While I’m raising concerns about your decision, I do have great respect for how you’re trying to drive the lesson home to your child, and I know it’s very hard to know what’s the right thing to do. What may indeed work with your student may not work with another. As I’ve said before, ultimately, each student has to make their own decisions about alcohol use, and no matter what parents do, students may make the wrong choice.</p>
<p>"But in any case, I do not see how you keep equating a kid who got caught with ONE drink and had ONE suspension as being a “high school drunk.”</p>
<p>But, of course, we are very close to doing that with a “cheater”, aren’t we?</p>
<p>I think this gets very close under the skin for I-Dad and myself because we are witnessing what is happening at our alma mater, “College #1”. Not only 47% of students binge drinking in the past two weeks (most more than once, and much higher rates for males, athletes, and white students.) Not only because prospects have been hospitalized for alcohol poisioning virtually every year for the past 6, two of them near death. Not only because 30% of the student body are now heavy drinkers (2 or more drinks daily for a month - again higher for male students, athletes, and white students.) Not only because the spreading of feces on the walls and urinating into refrigerators have now become relatively common occurrences, reported at least twice a year in the campus paper for the last four years. Not only because a drunken student threw a concrete brick through the President’s House window. Not only because students have been defecating from fourth story windows. Not only because bonfires have been set by drunken students, who threw the belongings of other (non-participating) students on to the fire. Not only because an all-star football player, reinstated after a year’s suspension for homophobic and racist e-mails, came close to murdering a friend of another student who was his girlfriends’ ex. Not only because the trustees have had to call special all-weekend meetings just to try to get a handle on a bunch of students run amok. The litany gets monotonous (there’s more, and this is just the public information), and I couldn’t make it up if I wanted to.</p>
<p>No, it is because students whose families are paying $45k a year, or if poorer, the equivalent for their families might want something different for themselves. They DESERVE, including those who are there now - and whether they themselves drink or not - something better. And if means keeping out a couple of otherwise good students who might benefit from an education at “College #1”, well, so be it, it won’t be the first time, it won’t be the last. Colleges don’t admit individuals, they admit classes, and I doubt they have a niche for future feces spreaders.</p>
<p>And once they have 'em, get rid of 'em - there are plenty of others just lined up to take their places, even if it means lower graduation rate statistics.</p>
<p>We can all agree that feces spreaders are disgusting and should be banned–heck they are even banned n reality TV. But idad, how about a pretty straight 16 year old who goes to a party at 8 pm and sees the other boys playing drinking games? What if the kid idiotically sees the game being played clear alcohol, in this case gin, and thinks this would be a good time to try a drinking game since clear liquor is probably easier to drink than beer? Really smart kids can be surprisingly stupid sometimes.</p>
<p>What if the kid doesn’t feel the booze for the first thirty minutes of the game? What if it suddenly hits him like a Mack truck? What if he asks his sober friends to drive him straight home? What if he arrives on his mother’s front porch at 9 pm absolutely trashed but truly remorseful?</p>
<p>What if he then proceeds to throw up all over mother’s carpets as he lurches to the bathroom?</p>
<p>Is that a ‘drunk’ or is that a kid learning a tough lesson?</p>
<p>Yes, he had to paint our turn of the century porches and wash all the windows on the house–event hough he did the ‘right’ thing by asking his friends to bring him home.</p>
<p>If you have a perfect daughter, you may not have to visit these grey areas, but if you have sons (or thrill seeking daughters), chances are you will be navigating a few more grey areas-- to the best of your ability.</p>
<p>Cheers:</p>
<p>That is exactly why I wish colleges would not recruit drinking game players as heavily as they do. You have just identified one of the problems with “centers of drunkenness” on campus. </p>
<p>I don’t know why you guys keep making cracks about perfect children. Mine drinks in college. I am not against drinking in college. I’m not really wild about recent policy changes at my daughter’s school that make it more difficult to have a keg at all-campus parties.</p>
<p>I have a big problem with the degree of Otis the Town Drunk behavior at colleges and the unwillingness to recognize the fact that it is clearly an admissions problem.</p>
<p>The way I see it, colleges have plenty on their plates dealing with the mistakes kids make such as you have described, without recruiting drunks and promoting centers of binge drinking.</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>Here’s a post (answering the question “how often do you party”) from one of College #1’s Early Decision acceptances this year (football tip, NE boarding school after being suspended from his first high school for alcohol in the tenth grade, high SATs, so-so grades):</p>
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</p>
<p>Well, it took 147 posts but once again a thought provoking discussion about risks to ALL our children has degenerated into an attack on Williams, the Great Satan of LACs. </p>
<p>I’ll say it again, bad things happen at good schools – ALL of them. There isn’t one in the country about which you couldnt drudge up litany of outrage were you so vindictively inclined. Different poisons, different behavior, maybe, but equally appalling and dangerous. Williams just doesnt try to hide their sins under the rug of self-righteousness.</p>
<p>
I agree with this…one doesn’t have to be “perfect” to make reasonable and responsible decisions. If PARENTS denigrate these types of kids in this way (with a sarcastically offered “perfect”), how do you think they’re treated by their peers?? </p>
<p>True story of my brother’s from h.s. (in Austin, TX in the mid 80’s). There was a teacher at his school who considered himself “cool” and a buddy of the students. He had my brother (a committed nondrinker) in one class, but in front of a DIFFERENT class, he publicly denigrated my brother for being “straight” and a nondrinker/drug user. After receiving complaints about this from many of my brother’s friends who were IN the class, the administration made the prudent decision to let the teacher go…think of the message he was sending those kids!! Wow. </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Momrath:</p>
<p>It’s not about one school. My daughter’s school has easily identifiable centers of drunkenness that account, directly or indirectly, for most of the alcohol-related disruption. IMO, the school has been far too enabling of these organizations.</p>
<p>There are quantifiable differences in the number of drunks at various schools. There are some well-defined geographic and demographic correlations. But, I think the differences can be largely boiled down to marketing (attracting likely drunks) and/or admissions profiles (accepting likely drunks). For example, a school that promotes a large Greek scene will attract and enroll a larger number of drunks than a school that does not. I think any school could identify their own centers of drunkenness and take steps to reduce the numbers being enrolled, IF THEY WANTED TO.</p>
<p>Many of the reasons colleges have a hard time dealing with it have already been stated. But also, the reasons have to do with us parents. Many have been there. Many cannot come down against these “mistakes” our children make because it hits too close to home. If we judge them, we judge ourselves, so we give them weak or mixed messages.</p>
<p>When my kids were little, I was always amazed at parents who didn’t feel they could “make” their child do things. I always asked them how they were able to successfully keep their kids from playing on highways, then? We all have absolutes in our families. This needs to be one. Don’t let them play on highways, and don’t let them illegally drink.</p>
<p>I remember a thread last year about a student cheating in HS, and the lengths the poster, and parents on this board, were willing to go to, to see that child have consequences. The indignation we all felt that that child was getting honors and admissions despite his cheating. I don’t sense the same indignation here. I think it hits too close to home.</p>
<p>I think Idad has made some excellent points. I’d like to offer another. If your alma mater has a drinking problem at school, withhold your contributions and be very specific about why. Let them know you’ll get back involved when they show some proactiveness about dealing with it. Money talks.</p>
<p>As far as being continually drunk, Lucifer claimed (who knows?) that he wasn’t. That he limited his drinking to certain social occasions. It’s those social occasions I’m concerned about. The peer pressure and prestige that come with drinking are going to kill more of our kids until we find a way to cut into them. Punishments for drinking are not going to catch everyone, but the fear of being caught can be a motivator, when the stakes are high enough. </p>
<p>Brain storming here: How about schools (or parents) discontinuing financial aid for those with a certain number of infractions? Expelling presidents of Greek societies whose parties get out of hand? (Not fair? I’m trying to think of ways to create opposite peer pressure.) How about requiring a general “release of info to parents” for any admit with a history of HS drinking, so parents are immediately aware of signs like a drop in grades or an admit to an ER? (The justification being, you have our total trust in you until you give us cause to not trust you – which you have already done.)</p>
<p>Let’s quit thinking of reasons why we should ignore or justify illegal, underaged drinking, and think of ways to save lives. </p>
<p>Somebody on this or another thread asked about drinking in countries where it’s legal. That’s a whole different thread. It’s legal here, but it’s not cool to be disgustingly drunk. I think those kids would be shunned, but I don’t know for sure, because I’ve not seen it. My D has been out “barhopping” with her English teacher. Her class toured a brewery, where they ate lunch, many kids having beer. (She drinks and prefers Coke. Nobody cares.) Kids and adults both generally have a drink or two, then switch to soft drinks or water. It’s one of those things they shake their heads in wonder about, about the US – A) that kids aren’t allowed to drink, and that B) they don’t know how to drink responsibly.</p>
<p>Binx, I’m the one who raised the issue of what happens in other countries. I mentioned Canada where the drinking age is lower, and where my D3 has not seen the type of drunken behavior which is mentioned here in this thread. I have wondered for years if having the drinking age at 21 is wise. You’re right, kids are NOT taught to drink responsibly. When something is so strictly forbidden, it is difficult to then learn how to handle that something in a normal fashion. Some of my Ds’ friends do not drink at all, and there’s nothing strange or weird about that. It’s accepted. The atmosphere around drinking at the University of Toronto is very, very different than it is for my other D who is at NYU. </p>
<p>I don’t know if these figures on campus drinking were kept prior to the time when the drinking age was raised to 21 across the country but it would be interesting to know how it was affected by that action. I still think the key is to learn responsibility, whether that happens at 18, 19, 21, or 25. It’s a lesson that every adult is going to need in their lives.</p>
<p>My experience at college was that it was the kids with the LEAST drinking experience in high school and the most restrictive parents who went nuts at college and became the “town drunks”.<br>
I still disagree with the premise that eliminating a student with a high school drinking suspension will impact the amount of alcohol abuse at the college. There just isn’t a correlation of any significance. The drinking suspension in high school might have had nothing to do with even being drunk! One boy from S’s prior school was suspended for being IN THE ROOM while others were drinking.
I, too, was waiting for this to become about The Evil Williams College and all the drunk football players.<br>
I managed to keep my son from playing in the highway. However, I did not manage to keep him from doing other dangerous behaviors, which is why he wound up in a wilderness program and losing a year of his “freedom”. I was willing to go to great- and expensive-lengths to parent him and teach him lessons. He’s a smart kid who STILL does stupid things on occasion. I will admit to parenting mistakes, but a lot of it is just his strong-will and need to push the limits. It’s not always a bad thing. A number of prep schools and colleges feel that he can add a lot to the community.<br>
I don’t think I am trying to justify teenage drinking. It is a reality. If your child and his or her friends are non-drinkers, that is wonderful. It is a minority, though. It is a problem of epidemic proportions and the goal of THIS parent is to do everything possible to keep my child safe.</p>
<p>
You are absolutely right.</p>
<p>Im sick to read about Lucifer, most particularly because a friend and I were lamenting just this past weekend about a teenager we know who is partying quite a bit only a month after having been rushed to the hospital to have her stomach pumped. Her parents are obviously having a really hard time setting/enforcing limits. </p>
<p>I believe that we parents have such a hard time prohibiting underage drinking because we feel that theres little credibility in prohibiting something that we do ourselves. We excuse our lack of backbone by rationalizing that modeling moderate social drinking is the best way to teach responsible drinking to our teenagers. The problem is that we forget all too easily that most teenagers do not have the self-control to stop at one drink or two. </p>
<p>This is universal and not just an American epidemic. Teenage drinking and moderation are not easy companions anywhere in the world.</p>
<p><a href=“http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1817115.stm[/url]”>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1817115.stm</a>
<a href=“http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060316/lf_afp/afplifestylespain_060316192047[/url]”>http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060316/lf_afp/afplifestylespain_060316192047</a>
<a href=“http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4818180.stm[/url]”>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4818180.stm</a></p>
<p>“We excuse our lack of backbone by rationalizing that modeling moderate social drinking is the best way to teach responsible drinking to our teenagers.”</p>
<p>I disagree. If modeling moderate social drinking isn’t the best way to teach responsible drinking, then what is? It’s definitely not a lack of backbone on my part that makes me want to teach my children to learn to drink responsibly. I’m not sure that “most” teenagers do not have the self-control to stop at one drink or two. How many have been given the chance? Certainly not many in the U.S. since the drinking age has been 21. This was the point I was trying to make earlier about Canada. I’m not claiming that no student there ever drinks to excess. However, the problems which have been cited in this thread, the horrible behaviors associated with drunk students, just are not in evidence at Canadian schools. It makes me wonder if this could be in part due to the fact that the drinking age is lower, that it isn’t verboten for kids younger than 21 to actually have a beer if they’re out at a pub, that kids don’t congregate in dorm rooms/frat houses consuming ridiculous amounts of ‘shots’ in order to get that quick buzz. </p>
<p>I’m simply attempting to ‘brainstorm’ here, as someone else suggested. It’s clear that there is a problem which needs some brainstorming. To simply continue the ‘it’s forbidden and illegal’ method is not, in my opinion, the right way to go. Abstinence and prohibition rarely work, with any age group, but perhaps most especially with young adults.</p>
<p>butfor the grace of … quick question, why is your post count stuck at 0?</p>
<p>Post count- if you only post in the Parent Cafe, it doesn’t change your post count. Not sure why…</p>
<p>butforthegraceof and berurah - right on! As a HS teacher, I sometimes overhear the kids talking - “What a great weekend - we really got drunk!” And the kids who took a horse tranquillizer for kicks! As for the kids who get caught, the vast majority are not the “once and I learned a lesson kids.” There is a culture not only among the kids, but among many parents that it’s OK for these kids to drink. At parties, parents serve the alcohol. Difficult to think this will change in college. And yes, many kids who had ultra strict parents go crazy in college. My roommate in college did that, and no amount of talking from me helped. She only lasted 2 years there. Until the premissiveness regarding alcohol in society changes, nothing will change. As to elite colleges doing nothing, I have only the evidence from Amherst where my D goes. There are adults old enought to buy and drink on campus. All kegs must be registered and approved. The cops come by to check that no underage kids are drinking. There is generally noise associated with drinking, and the crime log in the college newspaper reports where the cops went by, found unregistered kegs, underaged drinking, and confiscated the keg, fined the kids and referred them to the Dean. So, at least Amherst is trying to do something. Can they stop it all? No. The culture has to change. This site has many responsible parents, so it seems as though we are preaching to the choir. But there are many parents out there that see nothing wrong with this, and have instilled this in their kids. Not so easy to change. And it is these very parents that create havoc in a teacher’s and administrator’s lives. Their kids are perfect and can do anything, and do anything to “buy” Johnny out of his difficulties - threaten lawsuits, etc. Johnny never learns that there are repercussions to his actions, so thinks he can get away with anything. Kudos to those parents that make their kids pay for their mistakes. Hopefully, these lessons will teach the kids and they won’t do it again.</p>
<p>“Abstinence and prohibition rarely work, with any age group, but perhaps most especially with young adults.”</p>
<p>Actually, when it comes to “abstinence and prohibition,” they do work with most people when it comes to things like heroin, pot, cocaine, shoplifting, etc.</p>
<p>IMO why abstinence and prohibition often don’t work with alcohol is that many parents think it’s fine that their kids break the rules. The parents may even help their kids break the rules. </p>
<p>Other adults also think that it’s OK to ignore underage drinking or to simply give offenders slaps on the wrists.</p>
<p>If there are people who honestly think the laws are unfair, the way to address that is to work to change the laws, not encourage teens to ignore the laws.</p>