<p>I like Cardinals. 
I’d add Patience to the mix. Of the five, only two made the canon of Gilbert and Sullivan.</p>
<p>…
From post #313
Either exist as you are or be as you look.
…</p>
<p>SBmom (sorry its late, I tried to find the poem in Farsi),</p>
<p>I very much admire your love of Rumi. I also find him very easy to love. As to the meaning of the line in the poem, I know the poem, although at home we read Rumi in the Persian originals: Masnavi and Divani Shams. My father, who is an American, spent a few years translating another mediaeval Sufi master, Shabistari and his book the Golshan-e Raz (The Garden of Secrets, 14th cent.). So poetic exegesis has been a rather large part of my youthful education. As to the poem, I am sure you are adept at understanding most of the imagery yourself so I wont labor upon it.</p>
<p>There is a tradition of the Prophet which most all Sufis take as there social ethic: to be as a mote of dust dampened with dew. That is to say, be yielding and softly bear the tread of others and damp so that you raise no dust upon them.</p>
<p>Most of the imagery in this poem takes off from this sacred saying of the Prophet Mohamed. The last line is for those who are not mature within, but nonetheless aspire to be a lover of God. If you are not yet as you are that is perfected, at least act as you appear, as a Sufi.</p>
<p>There is another tradition in Sufism that says at the beginning of the path we have freewill but at the end we are all determinists. That is to say, at the beginning you will have to continually make a choice to align your will with the will of god (be as you look in the above poem), but in the end you will be one with the will of God and will no longer have a will independent from its source the lover has become one with the Beloved (exist as you are in the above poem).</p>
<p>You may also know, that Traditional Sufism not only forbids evangelism (it assumes everyone already has a path to God), any aspirant to the Path is discouraged from even becoming a Sufi and only with great effort will you be allowed to enter the path of the Darvish.</p>
<p>Farsi Meichonam. (but it’s been almost 35 years since I lived in Isfahan!)</p>
<p>My favorite Rumi, as I see it, is an direct answer to the fundamentalists:</p>
<p>But dont be satisfied with poems
And stories of how things
have gone with others.</p>
<p>Unfold your own myth,
Without complicated explanation,
so everyone will understand
the passage, We will have opened you.</p>
<p>Start walking toward Shams.</p>
<p>Your legs will get heavy
and tired. Then comes a moment
of feeling the wings youve grown
lifting</p>
<p>Mini, as you probably know, the “Shams” of the poem was both Rumi’s master and the Persian word for the Sun. Rumi left one of the most privileged lives in the Middle East of his day to follow the humble beggar and his Sun, Shams.</p>
<p>To me, this song/poem by Rumi is the essence of that holy longing for God.
In it, he takes the voice of the flute that is cut away from the reed bed and hollowed and blown though and sings only one song; the song of longing to return to its origin, its home, to the reed bed. That is to be reunited with the Beloved, as the lover is forever incomplete without it.
Here is the Persian, followed by my own rough translation of the first few stanzas.</p>
<p>Beshno az nei coon hekayat meikonad
As jodaaeiha shekayat meikonad</p>
<p>Kaz neiestan ta mara bobreideand
Az naffiram mard o zan naleidehand</p>
<p>Seeneh khaham sharheh sharheh az faragh
Ta begooyam sharheh dardeh eshtiagh</p>
<p>Har kasi koo door mand az asle kheesh
Baz jooyad roozegareh vasle kheesh
…
Listen to the lament of the reed
Singing its story of separation</p>
<p>Since I was sliced away from the reed field
With this crying sound I have made all men and women moan</p>
<p>Still, Ill need the deepest breath to tell of the longing
Of being separated from the Beloved</p>
<p>Whoever is torn away from their origin
will long for and seek that union</p>
<p>FS, Thanks that is a good explanation.</p>
<p>Mini, love that one too!</p>
<hr>
<p>Here are two from one of my favorite poets, Wallace Stevens:</p>
<p>“Less And Less Human, O Savage Spirit”</p>
<p>If there must be a god in the house, must be
Saying things in the rooms and on the stair,</p>
<p>Let him move as the sunlight moves on the floor,
Or moonlight, silently, as Plato’s ghost</p>
<p>Or Aristotle’s skeleton. Let him hang out
His stars on the wall. He must dwell quietly.</p>
<p>He must be incapable of speaking, closed,
As those are: as light, for all its motion, is;</p>
<p>As color, even the closest to us, is;
As shapes, though they portend us, are.</p>
<p>It is the human that is the alien,
The human that has no cousin in the moon.</p>
<p>It is the human that demands his speech
From beasts or from the incommunicable mass.</p>
<p>If there must be a god in the house, let him be one
That will not hear us when we speak: a coolness,</p>
<p>A vermillioned nothingness, any stick of the mass
Of which we are too distantly a part.</p>
<p>From “Sunday Morning”</p>
<p>What is divinity if it can come
Only in silent shadows and in dreams?
Shall she not find in comforts of the sun,
In pungent fruit and bright, green wings, or else
In any balm or beauty of the earth,
Things to be cherished like the thought of heaven?
Divinity must live within herself:
Passions of rain, or moods of falling snow;
Grievings in lonliness, or unsubdued
Elations when the forest blooms; gusty
Emotions on wet roads on autumn nights;
All pleasures and all pains, remembering
The bough of summer and the winter branch.
These are the measures destined for her soul.</p>
<p>SBmom, </p>
<p>Something like Luke 21:33 which states "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away, the Quran states everything passes away but the face of your Lord.
They sound similar but the Quranic ayat (verse/sign) may relate somewhat more obviously to the Stevens poem you selected (one of my favorites). What it is saying is expanded upon by a hadith (saying) of the Prophet which states behind everything is hidden the face of your lord.
That is, all the things of this world are in fact veils behind which is hidden the true face of Life (Al-Hi-yy [the LIVING]) the Beloved, God; present and enlivening all contingent things which come to life and pass away.
As in Stevens poem,
Divinity must live within herself:
Passions of rain, or moods of falling snow;</p>
<p>Hi fountainsiren! I read some posts of yours in other threads, and they have very unique points. How do you view Christianity?</p>
<p>Hi Bneg,</p>
<p>Religion appeals to the instinct, within us, to better ourselvesI suppose, some just need it more than others. </p>
<p>A Sufi teacher I know once told me a story about a devout Muslim who had come to him wanting to be initiated into Sufism because he thought it was the path that would bring you closest to Godthe inner path, as we Sufis say. So this teacher asked him, tell me about yourself and the man replied Im from a very good Muslim family; I have never offended my mother or father; I pray five times a day, and I give a generous amount to charity and I have never offended the Shariat (religious law). </p>
<p>So the teacher asked him, have you ever gotten drunk?
No, of course not!
Have you ever looked at a woman and thought Id really like to have s e x with her?
Praise God, I have not!
Have you ever known someone whos money you wished to have, and perhaps considered ways of getting it?
Allah provides.
Have you ever just wanted to kill somebody because they made you so mad that you couldnt suffer their existence for a minute longer?
God knows I could never! I just told you, Im a devout Muslim who follows the shariat. I have never done any of these things, Teacher, I have not even thought of such things. </p>
<p>And the teacher took a puff off his cigarette, looked askance at the man, and said with deep profundity, then what are you doing here? This place is for those who seek to overcome who they are. You seem to be quite happy and proud of who you are. Good day. I cannot help you. </p>
<p>He told me this story to stress that the function of religion is to help those who believe they need help (all do, some know it), to become better than they currently are (or, more precisely, less than they are: fana, nirvana, spiritual poverty, etc.), and thus nearer to God. I believe every religion has the capacity to do this. It is not a zero-sum game; the starting line for everyone is different and thus their current position is unknown to us. For those with wisdom, there will be no expectations because of this.</p>
<p>I believe every traditional religion has the capacity to do these two central things; to help someone to become better than who they are (ie, less than who they are, most-often), and thus become more open and closer to God, that is The TRUTH, The REAL. </p>
<p>As to the theology of Christianity, it is as beautiful as any other I know of. </p>
<p>Sufis say that there are as many paths to God as there are hearts, and there are many hearts indeed. Moreover, Sufis have historically believed that there are two archetypes for a Sufi.
- Social/ethical
- Personal/mystical
The first, having to do with the social aspects of life and ethical behavior, is represented by the Prophet Mohammed.
The second, which is more specific to Sufism (the prophet Mohammed represents ethical behavior to ALL Muslims) is Jesus. Jesus represents the inner aspect of a Sufi, the mysteries, the complete self-sacrifice and journey to God. </p>
<p>Islam is often said to have three aspects similar to a fruit or a nut.<br>
- There is the outer form, or the shell, which is knows as Shariat, the ethical law, which all Muslims are subject to.
- The fruit itself, known as Tariqate, which means the path i.e. Sufism, leads to the kernel, which is called
- Haqiqate, or The TruthGod. </p>
<p>The idea in Sufism is to get to the kernel, The TRUTH, The REAL. To do that, you have to crack the shell. Thus, by many Muslims, Sufism is considered heretical. In Saudi Arabia, Sufism, is a capital offense (this is one reason why I find the modern American fetish for separation of church and state [a concept not in the constitution) to be somewhat hysterical). </p>
<p>If there is any other way I can help you (and I doubt it) let me know.</p>
<p>SB Mom - you chose my all time favorite poem by Stevens…“Divinity must live within herself…”</p>
<p>Thank you for reminding me about that other world. It brought back wonderful memories and I think it’s time for a visit.</p>
<p>That’s very interesting fountainsiren! I guess what really appeals to people about Jesus is that there are many proposed ways for us to search for and reach God, but through Him comes the one way where God searches for and reaches us.</p>
<p>“…is that there are many proposed ways for us to search for and reach God, but through Him comes the one way where God searches for and reaches us.”</p>
<p>How can you know this? I mean, it all gets to be a bit much doesn’t? The certainty we humans tend to have about the way things are, the way the world is, the way “God” operates…it is truly wearisome.</p>
<p>I don’t really understand your post, sorry, but I will try to respond.
The thing you put in quotation marks is deducted from what fountainsiren posted. </p>
<p>“Sufis say that there are as many paths to God as there are hearts, and there are many hearts indeed. (1. Social/ethical)
Jesus represents the inner aspect of a Sufi, the mysteries, the complete self-sacrifice and journey to God. (2. Personal/mystical)”</p>
<p>This is what I believe; the presence of the one and only God can be found anywhere (as in nature, and human nature (please see psalms)), and therefore there are many many ways to know God and establish a relationship with God. HOWEVER, many people do not get there maybe because they feel ashamed and want to avoid it/ they cannot find the way/ the have been told a wrong way/ they have found the way but could not walk on it long enough/they believe they are on their way but do not realize their motive is to just feel good about themselves or to make them feel secure/etc. </p>
<p>God then becomes very worried; also, while people are organizing ways to reach God there are those who oppose God who wants to deceive them. That makes God double-worried. He then comes to look for people, and He has found everyone. </p>
<p>HOWEVER, because people were not created to be robots, people can still decide if they want to believe God has found them, and whether or not they want to establish a relationship with him. </p>
<p>Another factor is sin. God is holy. When something ‘sinny’ approaches holiness it becomes destroyed. That is why people confess; they have to believe they have sin BEFORE they can believe their sins are removed by God (which is a free service). Then, when people approach God in the very end in heaven, they are no longer ‘sinny’ and will not perish as it naturally happens. </p>
<p>There are many theories for people to find God, reach God, and not be sinny. however, Jesus answered, “I am the way…” and let’s all walk on this one way God Himself has laid. (Unless, you can find someone else who claims to be God and has sacrificed to be the way)</p>
<p>“…therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” from Hebrews 11:16</p>
<p>The destination has been prepared for you, and the way has been laid for you. That is the message of Jesus and Christianity.</p>
<p>I have a question…people are quoting the Bible, and we know that the bible was edited, changed, adjusted, translated, by man for almost two thousand years (new testament) and even longer for the old</p>
<p>How do we know Jesus said, THE Way, and not A way? If you read about all the different translations, languages, etc, and the gospels that were rejected for various reasons, what King George had done, who is to really say what were the real intentions two thousand years ago…once man’s hands get on things, no matter when or where, it is going to be changed to suit the editors, which they were…the Word of God (which is what many call the Bible) was touched and changed by humans over and over again</p>
<p>just some thoughts.</p>
<p>bneg - citygirls makes the point more clearly than I perhaps re: the certainty people have that Jesus is the only way to God - so what happens to the Hindus, the Buddists, the animists…and sorry, I know a great many agnostics and aethiests who are probably more" Godly’ in their acts and their manner of living and treating people than those who profess to be Christians. Are they, then, condemed to a life in Hell after death?
Who makes these rules? I have a hard time believing that the God I place my faith in - who is all knowing, all love, and all tolerant - would do that. But then, I guess my God is different from yours…</p>
<p>
First, theolgians and biblical scholars do not rely on translations of the Bible - they use ancient manuscripts written in Greek (for the NT). Secondly, you have to ask yourself, why would Jesus do what he did - allow himself to be brutaly crucified with the subsequent miracle of being rasied from the dead if he were only one of many ways to salvation? What would be the point of his entire ministry if he was really only option 4 on a Chinese menu?</p>
<p>What’s the difference if they use Greek translations? The New Testament wasn’t written at the time of Jesus. Any Greek manuscripts about Jesus weren’t written at the time of Jesus either.</p>
<p>Well, I’m probably making a mistake getting into a religious discussion, but as a practicing Christian, I must speak for a different view. </p>
<p>Jesus did not spend a lot of his time discussing his death, resurrection, etc. That was Paul, et al.</p>
<p>His ministry was devoted pretty much entirely to the ethics of being a good person, not what you call yourself, but what you do. (Not to get into a works vs faith disagreement–by what you do, I mean what you know is right, which is a subset of faith, even if one does not call it that.) I have no doubt that many people follow his way, whatever they call it, and that he recognizes that (my feeling about Jesus is that he will always be large-hearted, more generous, and wiser than we can possibly imagine, and that thinking we can know who passes his muster and who doesn’t does him a disservice.)</p>
<p>
I agree with that and that is why I think this whole discussion about what fundamentalist Christians may believe about salvation is ridiculous. Who cares what anyone thinks about salvation. The narrow interpretation of the Bible may be correct or salvation may be open to a broader group. </p>
<p>The point is that only God knows what the “rules” are. Fundamentalist don’t make the rules and neither do those who don’t share the faith of the fundamentalists. However, to hold fundamentalist Christians in a negative light just because of what they believe relative to salvation is just as bad as if a fundamentalist Christian treats someone outside their faith with disdain. Both are forms of religious bigotry.</p>
<p>The reason some religious people are held in a negative light is because they say it’s their way or hell.</p>