<p>
I didn’t think that women and Christians were orthogonal with each other.</p>
<p>Nice chatting with you all, but it’s time to go enjoy the 4th!</p>
<p>And from what I have read, many “reglious” church going slave holders were often the cruelest…these people called themselves religous, went to church, had chapels, and read the bible. And they used the bible to justify their choices. THis wasn’t a cult, it was a huge percentage of the American Population.</p>
<p>And if anyone saw Paul Harveys quote the other day, here it is again:</p>
<p>Once a person says that he makes his moral decisions based on religion and the religious history of this country, and he did say this, I will give you the link to his words, all the other things he also says don’t matter as much. Unless you think saying to things that are contradictory make for a good judge.</p>
<p><a href=“http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/transcript3.php3[/url]”>http://pewforum.org/deathpenalty/resources/transcript3.php3</a></p>
<p>ps- his job is to interpret a law in context with the consitution, a very big deal, and yet I am not supposed to interpret what he says…yikes</p>
<p>And while I selected his quotes, they were HIS WORDS…and he does say, well yeah, i base it on the constitution, but he puts the constition in a religious context…of yeah, Christians and Non Beleivers</p>
<p>WHen you have the chance, please tell me why that is even relevent in ANY context when it comes to THE LAW</p>
<p>Once again attacking an entire belief by what one-who-claims-to-be-Christian says and does (or more than one, regarding comments on slavery). </p>
<p>“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!” We all know there are those who are hypocritic and full of bull*. Let’s stick together and not sin by settings our tongues too free for whatever those who are full of bull says or does. It’s not worth risking saying something offensive just to prove that people full of bull are full of bull. As the verse concludes, woe to those through whom they come, and let’s not give them a chance to do what they try to do.</p>
<p>When did I attack a belief system…I did not…I questioned the use of religion and politics…</p>
<p>And when a GOVERNMENT appointee makes a distinction between Christians and Non Believers, I take that as an attack against all those that have different beliefs, and are in fact Believers of their own right</p>
<p>And when people say they are religious and twist and turn it for there own needs, and when someone makes the comment that religious people were the big majority of those that wanted to free slaves, the point needs to be made that people that went to church, talked religion, etc, also were the biggest slave holders. So if someone is going to make the claim that people of religious beliefs do good, it needs to be pointed out that people of religious beliefs also do bad.</p>
<p>“Ban on gay marriage? Nope - this has widespread public as well as bipartisan approval. So, just what is it that brings out such venomous posts as Doctorx88’s?”</p>
<p>Actually, the constitutional amendment banning gay marriage was voted down by significant numbers of republicans as well as most democrats. Sure, our society isn’t too comfortable with gay “marriage,” but we certainly don’t want to ban it. </p>
<p>I never said I hated Christians and I’m all for freedom of religious belief and association. I myself once experimented with christianity and have many good christian friends. However, I condemn Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS just as I condemn Muslim FUNDAMENTALISTS. Take a historical perspective and you’ll see religious fundamentalism has never served society well.</p>
<p>
Well, guess what, existing federal law, passed by the vast majority of Congress and signed by Bill Clinton defines marriage exclusively as an act between a man and a woman. Also, in every state where it has come up to a vote, even the bluest of states like California and Oregon, it has been rejected by heavy majorities. </p>
<p>When Christain Fundamentalists start to saw people’s heads off and then proudly show it on the internet, you can equate them with Muslim Fundamentalists. Until then, your lumping them together and saying that they do not belong in “your” country constitutes virulent hate speech in my mind - the kind of speech that I don’t think I’ve heard from any fundamentalist Christian that you seem to abhor.</p>
<p>the only think stopping christian fundamentalists is the rule of law in a democratic society.</p>
<p>erm, the Defense of Marriage Act does not ban gay marriage. After all, why can’t we redefine marriage? Surely, if people are pretty lax about civil unions, then why are they so uncomfortable with gay “marriage”? After all, it’s just a civil union with more legal rights and a changed name. One more thing: constitutionally, gay marriage should be legal under the 14th amendment - Equal protection under the law. </p>
<p>And I’ll leave you again with this: last time I checked, people and their rights come before institutions. Locke said that we only have government to protect our rights, that we only surrender our own sovereignty to a centralized body so we may be able to live in peace without the fear of our own rights being taken away.</p>
<p>I believe we are saying the Fundamentalists do not belong in our GOVERNMENT, not our country. It’s as simple as that. No religion or religious beliefs belongs in our Government.</p>
<p>Here’s the point Doc, whether you are for gay marriage or against it, and whether it should be a right or should not be, the majority of the US population is against it, as are the majority of elected officials. To single out Christian fundamentalists as the single reason why we don’t relax those laws and then to couple that with rhetoric about “getting out of my country” is very close to the type of hate speech and scape goating used by Hitler against the Jews.</p>
<p>Oh, bullfeathers. The energy against gay marriage comes from loons like James Dobson jumping up and down and scaring people that the institution of marriage is threatened by gays being able to marry. </p>
<p>Funny, the threats to virtually every straight marriage I know of come from other straight people and aren’t affected one iota by what some gays do anywhere else.</p>
<p>But this is one issue I’m serene about. The support for gay marriage is steadily rising and the assoholic bigotry against it is going to eventually tip, following the same path that [and with virtually the same people doing the jumping up and down] interracial dating and marriage did a generation ago. </p>
<p>The bigots will be free to remain bigots but they’ll find it increasingly uncomfortable to be so.</p>
<p>yes, the topic is fundamentalists!</p>
<p>I believe, if they are REAL Christians their motive is the other way around: to govern according to the moral principals of Christianity. If they do not abide by these principals themselves, then I guess they don’t really have any religion or faith systems to be so ‘fundamental’ about, correct? </p>
<p>Christian fundmentalist will govern themselves first before governing others. If they do not, let’s use the word hypocrites instead. If they do happen to be hypocrites… well hypocrites aren’t anything new in the world of politics, and if so it would be helpless to stop them 'cause chance are that a new brand of hypocrites are going to take over. Then the thought of these people ruling don’t sound too bad, and as posted the chances of them succeeding are slim anyway.</p>
<p>My guess is that if you did an exit poll of any state in which it was on the ballot that 80% of the people who voted against it have never heard of James Dobson.</p>
<p>Its a mistake to assume that both Ca and Or are full of liberal voters. While like in other states residents of large cities like LA and Portland are for the most part vote democratic- small towns of which there are still quite a few are fairly conservative. Washington is the same way- the state is divided by a mountain range and voters have very different issues of concern.
as far as polling goes- here are a few examples for gay marriage
46% of voters feel that a(gay) couple who is legally married in one state should have the right to have their marriage recognized in all states.
37% approved of couples being able to marry
11% were neutral
50 % were opposed and
2% unsure
on an marriage amendment to the constitution limiting marriage to heterosexual couples
45% would favor
5% neutral
47% would oppose</p>
<p>I could quote polls adfinitum but it seems clear that americans are split evenly whether to allow legal marriage for gays. slightly more americans favor civil unions over marriage but only 41% say there should be no recognition at all.</p>
<p>here are some facts to reconsider (many of us have seen them):</p>
<p>73% homosexuals have had sexual intercourse with males under the age of 19.（The Gay Report．Summit Books）</p>
<p>Homosexuals are more likely to be murdered, nearly 100 times more possible than heterosexuals. （the murderer is usually another homosexual）；suicide rates are 25 times higher（50% of those who commit suicide are homosexuals). Is Homosexual Activity Normal，Marietta，GA .）</p>
<p>More than 50% of those with AIDS in the US are homosexuals.
（Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some，Post-Tribune）</p>
<p>A research on 8000 honosexual couples have shown that gay marriage lasts 3.5 years at most, and lesbian marriage lasts 2.2 years at most. A recent reserach on marriage in Holland indicates that the average homosexual marriage lasts 1.5 years.（American Couples）</p>
<p>First, I would like to say I support homosexuals. Yet homosexual marriage may cause negative impacts on the lives of these people I support and care about. </p>
<p>As previously posted, sin- please, let’s forget about all the relations the word has with hell and condemnations for a while- it hurts. It hurts people. Let’s be angry at those conservative Christians who ban it because they want no one to be hurt; let’s also be angry at those who have never had AIDS , never felt like committing suicide, and never broke up with their partners but still advocate this as if none of this matters or hurts. Please be really considerate about what effects it may have on these people who truly deserve a happy life.</p>
<p>actually the religious conservatives I know think Dobson is the greatest thing since paper towels
he has radio shows on 3000 stations- how can it be said that 80% of voters have never heard of him?
Of course when Jay Leno does those polls people don’t know who is being honored with the Jefferson memorial :rolleyes:</p>
<p>
That’s my point. The religious conservatives know and probably love him, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of the people voting against gay marriage know of him and certainly doesn’t imply, as TD said that they are all taking their marching orders from him.</p>
<p>I guess I didn’t realize we were debating Dobsons influence- I wouldnt say that all conservatives agree with him- actually I think many do not. He has pretty radical viewpoints however from his parenting books to his television and radio programs he does spread his opinion quite a bit.
Did you see that the United Church of Christs’ rule making body just voted overwhelmingly to approve a resolution endorsing same-sex marriage?
Who knows- maybe someday all people in the US will have the same rights to chose who they love.</p>
<p>CGM:
he says he uses the CHRISTIAN beliefs as his moral compass</p>
<p>The needle on any moral compass responds to the magnet of belief and nothing else, not law and not popular trends (we should hope). What should he replace his belief with Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or, perhaps even better, your beliefs or mine since there is no other way to provide a grounding to morality but through belief. </p>
<p>Doctor88:
I condemn Christian FUNDAMENTALISTS
More wisdom from the Great Enlightenment Philosophers I presume.</p>
<p>TheDad:
The energy against gay marriage comes from loons like James Dobson jumping up and down and scaring people</p>
<p>Ive never even heard of James Dobson. Who is he?</p>