I think the survey is meant to get a handle on how big of a problem Michigan has with regard to behavior that may be a violation of their student conduct code. Given that the code states that psychological pressure or intimidation does have bearing on the issue of consent, they included questions that address those circumstances.
We might not agree that psychological pressure should be a violation but the University says consent “may not be valid” under those circumstances. My question is were the types of situations they addressed in the questions relating to psychological pressure things that they would consider a violation of their code?
The Michigan survey is not the same as SES. In particular, Michigan separates out incapacitated rape from unconscious/sleeping rape, a welcome change IMO. We might argue about the definition of “incapacitated,” but everyone here agrees that a person who is unconscious or asleep is not consenting.
Fang – I’d agree that Wapo incident is rape. Sounds like it involved physical force too. So I don’t think it is an instance of just “verbal pressure.”
I take two things away from that WaPo anecdote.
First, no way that rape can ever be proven. Not in court. Not in a college tribunal. That’s so often the case. Focusing on improving adjudication is just such a dead end thing to do. Thanks Obama (via DOE OCR)!
Second, was that rape avoidable? Absolutely.
The girl can be trained to not be so naive. This situation involves a young single male and a young single female in a private room that has a locking door and which contains a bed. That situation is not about sharing a passion for classic cinema noir. That guy knows that situation is sexual; the girl should know that too.
Also, this incident happened in a dorm room. Help is literally right next door. Let’s train this girl to make some noise and not freeze up. So that the RAs and trained bystanders will come running. Since there’s no mention of drinking (which is rare), the victim could have been armed with some simple knowledge that would have prevented her victimization. That’s not victim blaming, just common sense.
@northwesty, in California law the “force” in “forcible rape” is just the force necessary to have the sex, so I would call the Wapo incident “forcible rape.” But she says she didn’t physically fight back. So even though you and I would call it forcible rape, she might not classify it that way.
Why is the guy right, here? The guy doesn’t “know” the situation is sexual. The guy thinks the situation is sexual, and then he makes it sexual by raping her. Why are we supposed to educate women that guys are right in assuming that every single situation where a man is alone with a woman is sexual? Why don’t we educate the men that it’s possible to want to watch a movie and not have sex? Where does that jerk get off, saying that rape isn’t rape? He’s the one that needs education here: education that sticking your **** where it isn’t wanted is a crime.
I am going to take this statement as a joke. I would hate to think you are making a serious argument. Whether Michigan drew heavily on the SES survey or not, surveys are not all the same.
Drawing heavily from a survey does not make those two surveys the same.
Fang – Like it or not, as a practical matter it is much more realistic and do-able to train victims and bystanders (which includes the good guys) to prevent incidents.
Much harder and less effective to try to train bad guys to act like good guys. Also much harder and less effective to try to improve the situation through legal process changes.
I think just about any male (and also many females) would see that girl as quite naive (like it or not). She would have been better off if she’d been coached about that.
I am not quite so sure about the girl being “naive.” My own D just graduated high school (a boarding school) and during parietals the students would often visit each others rooms. My own D had many male friends and they often would go and watch a movie in each others rooms during parietals. There was no thought of sex on her part – it was just a friend to watch a movie with. I am thinking in college it would be even more common for friends of the opposite sex to watch a movie together in a dorm room.
@dstark, I am not entirely sure what point you are driving at. All of these surveys, including the Michigan survey, define consent, assault &/or misconduct in broad, entirely subjective terms.
The survey is not a legal document. Michigan ran 100 tests based on logic and other things before they were satisfied enough to release the survey to its student body.
The university said in the link what they are trying to measure. I think it is page 4.
The university also states what nonconsenual means and it means unwanted.
We can argue all the bs but…at a minimum there are close to 3 percent of female surveyed undergrads who experienced nonconsensual penetration over a 12 month period. We are talking nonconsensual penetration due to force, the threat of force or the person was unconscious or asleep. The number might be higher, but 3 percent is too high. This is 3 percent in a year. Not 3 percent over 4 years or 5 years.
There are also suggestions as to what force is and there are also suggestions on what verbal pressure is. I don’t think “Please” is consider verbal pressure.
Has anybody been able to read the actual surveyed questions? I can’t open the link on page 6 of the survey.
Notice that the questions about being incapacitated specify “taking advantage of you when you were under the influence of drugs or too drunk to stop what was happening.” Arguably, that’s more than just Oxy Jane Doe incapacitation; it sounds to me more like “you had no idea what was going on” level of intoxication.
I get alittle squeamish when I read stories where women can clearly get up and leave. I certainly think there is some education involved for both sides - for women how to be more assertive and if they aren’t comfortable being assertive how not to put themselves in positions where they feel they have no control and certainly things young men can learn about how women operate without them mentally dividing women into the crazy category and the not crazy category (and believe me they do). I heard an interesting news chat today about a woman who was furious because she found out her "boyfriend’ had met another woman for drinks. The female announcer (an older mid-thirties woman) asked the caller if her girlfriend and the guy had agreed to an exclusive relationship. Of course they had never had that discussion, but the caller was really, really mad and I thought to myself that is how plenty of young women are wired…they aren’t typically assertive and they sometimes assume that if “x” then “y” when it comes to guys but then they feel like a victim or they are mad because they feel like they got “played”…none of that is illegal and none of that is deserving of administrator’s “time” to figure out. I kind of thought that kind of 1950s prince charming stuff went out in the 70s, but I guess it’s still prevalent…girl’s dreaming that the perfect guy is the one next to them watching a movie who will know exactly what to say and what to do. I actually tend to agree with Northwesty that the girl in her bedroom with the door closed shouldn’t do that unless she has enough guts to get up and walk out if the situation is not to her liking. One “no” ought to be fair warning. Two “nos” and you should be outta there without looking back. If you are so non-assertive that your you can’t form words and turn into a limp rag when confronted with a situation that causes you to be dysfunctional you should never be in a bedroom with the door closed with a guy until you’ve matured abit, at a minimum keep the door open or make sure you’ve got a roommate nearby. Pretty much common sense that some of these women fail to understand…media does them no service when they coddle them.
I don’t think the UofM survey was all that 'bad" but I think like someone else said earlier we can’t lump dysfunctional relationships with criminal activities.
I am biased because my daughter went to Michigan and I love the school. If the weather was better I could live in Ann Arbor.
The questions look pretty good to me. I like how the drug and alcohol question was separated out from the other incapacitation question.
There is some subjectivity. There usually is. I think the verbal question is the weakest. Having said this, overall this is a pretty good survey. I think we get a good picture. There is a strong possibility well over 3 percent of female undergrads a year experience nonconsensual sex. ( I like to undercount). According to the female undergrads, it is almost 12 percent. Might be close to that. I never counted the drinking-drug question or the verbal question when looking at this issue but there has to be some nonconsensual sex that involves drugs or alcohol.
@northwesty, likes to say who would send their kid to a school with this many assaults? I had no clue. I knew there were some. I figured my daughter would not be one of those some.
I raised my daughter to be very proud of her body. To not have hangups. My mom was such a prude. No way was my daughter going to be raised like I was. No way.
So my daughter is not self conscious. ( My son isn’t either).
I took my daughter to Mich. I don’t want to tell the whole story. We are sitting in that famous deli in Ann Arbor. Zingerman’s. I said to my daughter, “Look at how the junior and senior women are dressed. Why don’t you dress like they dress?”
That is all I am going to say except there is no excuse for nonconsensual sex, my daughter graduated and she got out of there unscathed. I think. Lol!
All kidding aside, I think the survey is likely a good survey, and adequately captures the data sought. But it is not a survey designed to solely capture incidents of prosecutable or even correctable sexual assault. I think it is a survey designed to learn about the state of predatory sexual practices on campus, from a primarily female perspective.
My daughter is the oldest. Her younger brother went to Ohio Stare. We had a 10 ft flag in our house. A house divided. The flag had Michigan colors on one side Ohio State colors on the other side.
First question my daughter asked me when she found out her brother was going to Ohio Stare was, “You are still going to root for Michigan, right?”
Under severe stress the brain shuts down in weird ways. (This is, for example, known to be one of the reasons for hit-and-run accidents where there isn’t some sort of motive for that action, like driving without insurance—the brain takes a while to really process what happens.)
People behave very irrationally in horrible situations. This is normal, but is still not a reason for people to take advantage of that fact, particularly when they’d already been told not to.
I really disliked Eat, Pray, Love…not sure what that says about me DStarker love the giant emoticon ID…welcome back…I think I’ve met you somewhere before.
In light of all of this it will be interesting to see what happens to Drew Sterrett. I still think MSU is smart to call the police every time there is an accusation that even smells criminal. I think they have it right.
We are sitting in that famous deli in Ann Arbor. Zingerman’s. I said to my daughter, “Look at how the junior and senior women are dressed. Why don’t you dress like they dress?”