A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

cptofthehouse · March 31, 2014, 2:01am

The reason school specific Naviance results work better, is that there are definitely trends by schools. I can see them in looking at a group of schools’s results. The drawback is that there are far fewer data points than with a combined pool. At some of the larger, “good” but not nationally known high schools, only the top 1-3 kids are even considered by the most selective schools, something that I find rather shocking. That has been confirmed to me by adcoms and in some admission tell all books.

As for the OP’s DD and Davidson, and community service, since she is coming from a Catholic school, the chances are very high that she has quite a bit of comm svc, as most of them insist upon it as a graduation requirement. I know a number of kids who have gone to Davidson, and I’ve seen enough scatter points at various schools, that I find this a mild aberration. Mild, slight, but yes, an aberration. Enough to be a bit curious as to whether something was not right in the RD paperwork. Had a school been just a bit less selective than Davidson in that category, the mild curiousity would have intensified. A NE candidate being rejected from Williams and Bowdoin is expected. Most top candidates do apply to the most selective schools within a 3 hour radius from them, so Bowdoin would be inundated with apps from NE. Plus those two schools have accept rates that are very, very small anyways. With Davidson, I’m on the line here as to whether something was not right. Had the school been Wake, I’d be even more twitchy.

calmom · March 31, 2014, 2:05am

Based on the info provided by the OP, I wouldn’t guess “mistake” – I have a sense that the essays were probably too pat and predictable (“she wrote personalized essays that mentioned professors by name for the classes that she shall sat in on while attending” - “her essays were looked at by a friend who used to be a college counselor and he/she agreed that they were authentic;”). The colleges aren’t interested in what classes the kid sat in on while visiting (why would they be?) – and “authentic” isn’t quite good enough when the the goal is to stand out. My feeling is that the main essay needs to be something that no other applicant could write / or would write. (“Could” in the sense of being about something unique enough that no one else is going to come up with the same thing – “Would” in the sense that may be the topic is common, but the way that it is related or the particular perspective that is presented.). That’s why risk essays often work – they get attention.

I think it could have hurt the OP if she wrote about the project she did for her Girl Scout gold award (“authenticity of what makes my daughter who she is was her community service which culminated in her Girl Scout gold award project which is what she chose to write about”)-- as opposed to if she had written about some aspect of the same project without mentioning the award. (The GS award could have been listed under EC’s without detailing the project that earned it.). The award undermines the perceived value of the service because it can give the impression that she opted to do the work in order to get the award… as opposed that she did the work because of an inner passion or compassion.

I don’t quite get why anyone would think that a waitlist offer from a school with a holistic admission process that accepts less than 20% of applicants during RD is in any way surprising. I agree with the poster above who wrote, "“Parent’s cautionary tale: I don’t understand probability”

I do agree that the there might have been a weakness in the application that carries over to other schools… but I think that the “weakness” might simply be that that it lacked enough spark to attract attention. I think I look at the process through the eyes of a parent who of a dance with many years of experience performing, auditioning, and competing. Being the best dancer technically was never enough – the attention and the prizes always went to the one with the most stage presence.

I am assuming that the parent didn’t see the rec letters. That is one piece of information that I did have with my kids and I know, particularly with my daughter, exactly the ways that might have helped push a favorable admissions decision. Those LOR’s are very, very important. And unfortunately, it is very typical for applicants to waive their rights to see them.

I’d add that a LOR doesn’t have to be negative to be unhelpful. It can simply be too generic to be useful: and the generic LOR sends the unintended message “this student is so unremarkable that the teacher can’t think of anything specific to say.”

But there are also ways that positive and specific LOR’s can backfire. Sometimes it is an unfortunate and unintended choice of words by the teacher; and sometimes it is very intentional – so it can easily be conveyed with the right choice of adjectives or anecdotes that the valedictorian is merely a grade grubber, of that the student body president is arrogant and untrustworthy – without actually coming out and saying that.

lookingforward · March 31, 2014, 3:06am

Last time I checked, any school that uses the Common App agrees to use holistic review. Also, while the CDS is a nice reference point, don’t assume the ranking of what’s important is cast in concrete. And, this notion that high scores in something like USAMO should ensure a spot is debatable- a long standing mostly ladylike disagreement between QuantMech and me.

And rec letters? Of course faint praise is an issue, But so is when the writer veers out of the classroom and into activities. “Ben was a pleasure to teach”-- and then 3 paragraphs about his devotion to something non-academic, already covered by the GC. All the while, kids think of it as all praise and reviewers smack their heads.

I mostly agree with calmom’s analytical approach above, but want to say we really don’t know enough. I am curious if she stated pre-med intentions and what her related activities were.

oldmom4896 · March 31, 2014, 3:14am

Wow, this is really crazy. How can any kid without a giant hook who doesn’t peruse CC and/or have a perfect guidance/college staff at their high school ever get into a top college?

lookingforward · March 31, 2014, 3:15am

Oldmom, problem: mostly on CC, these hs kids are advising each other, not asking on the parents forum. Funny, but I have to acknowledge that, 5+ years ago, just on a thread or two, I gleaned a lot from calmom.

mathmom · March 31, 2014, 3:22am

MIT when my son was applying (2007) was much more interested in students with non-science ECs than the more one-sided applicants. No question the academics had to be there - but they were looking for kids who were more well-rounded. Somewhat to our surprise our comp sci kid got accepted by Harvard, but rejected by MIT.

I do think the essays can be the issue, even when vetted by others. My older son’s essays were good for him. I’m pretty sure the one he wrote for Caltech about an ethical dilemma, did him in though, and I know he failed the roommate essay for Stanford. Meanwhile my younger son, whose grades and scores weren’t as strong as his older brother’s ones, really got what makes a good essay. He managed to be funny, quirky and intellectual, making a great case that he had real potential that he hadn’t quite realized in high school.

jonri · March 31, 2014, 3:39am

(1) Apply early. If fin aid is important, apply early to an EA school. Chris’s D did this by applying to U of Chicago. Maybe she also applied early to MIT–which is EA, and not SCEA or REA. If you look at the # of students accepted during Harvard’s early round and its regular round, it’s obvious that–no matter what anyone says about “the early pool is better qualified”-- applying early helps. If we’re talking about the Browns and Dartmouths–top schools that offer ED–and you are NOT applying for fin aid, I’m convinced that–no matter what the schools say–it really hurts you if you don’t apply ED. They won’t hold it against you if you need fin aid. I am NOT saying that it is impossible to get in RD–just that it is easier to get in EA or especially ED.

(2) Excel–genuinely excel–at something and have proof that you do. You may be the best actress in the world, but if the only person telling colleges that is the drama adviser at a high school they aren’t familiar with, they aren’t going to know it. So, if you are an actress, do stuff like the Shakespeare contest, act in a community theatre or better yet, a semi-professional company, try to go to summer programs like Stage Door Manor, and have other proof that you excel. If you are good at art, go to National Portfolio Day, enter Scholastic and other contests, take an art course at a local art school or college, or attend a summer art program. At the very least, submit a great portfolio and give yourself enough lead time to develop a great one. If math’s your thing, take the AMC and the AIME, participate in ARML. If your school doesn’t offer these, participate in the USAMTS.

You get the idea—whatever it is you excel in, have proof that you really are good at it at a level beyond your local high school.

(3) Be from an underrepresented area. If you don’t do any of this stuff, you’ll be forgiven if you’re from Wyoming or West Virginia or Utah. Not so much if you’re from NYC, Boston, or LA.

(4) Before submitting send for your essay, pick up a copy of something like 50 Harvard Admissions Essays or take a look at something like “How to Get Into a Top College” by Montauk. If you’re not a great writer, don’t pick a common topic. So, if you’re applying to UVA and write an essay about your favorite person in history, don’t pick Thomas Jefferson. Whatever you do, don’t just repeat what appears elsewhere in your app and/or portray yourself as a type. They know from your app that you’re a first generation college applicant or that you’re a URM. Tell them something else about yourself in your essay.

(5) Get to know your teachers. Try to figure out which ones think going to a top college is worth it. I’m personally convinced that there are a lot of teachers who don’t think it is. While they won’t intentionally sabotage you, they may write a generic recommendation. If you don’t have a choice about it, at least try to convey to the teacher why it’s important to you. I want to go to __ because___

(6) Be willing to be an “oval.” So, if you enjoy acting but are never going to be a pro, don’t make all your reaches and matches places like Harvard, Yale, Brown, NYU, Vassar, etc.–the places all the other actors will apply. You can act at lots of schools. If you’re into philosophy, don’t use U Pitt as your safety. (It’s one of the highest ranked philosophy programs in the country and therefore attracts LOTS of wanna be philosophy majors.) If you’re a debater, don’t apply only to colleges with outstanding debate programs.

(7) Pray or rub your lucky rabbit’s foot because none of the above is guaranteed to work. It just increases your odds.

Hanna · March 31, 2014, 3:42am

“I do think the essays can be the issue, even when vetted by others.”

Amen. Thie biggest trap there is that there are plenty of essays that would be fine in isolation, but that appear identical to 1/3 of the other essays in the pile. If you haven’t read a college essay before – or even if you’re an English teacher who reads a handful every year – you probably won’t realize this. I’m often amazed how many kids will independently come up with near-identical sentences to describe their experiences. It’s unavoidable that the reader gets frustrated reading the seventh indistinguishable sports or community service essay in a row.

calmom · March 31, 2014, 3:49am

Why is it important for every kid to get into a “top” college? If kids were focusing on trying to get into “pretty good” colleges rather than “top” colleges – and were spending high school focusing on developing and pursuing their own interests without worrying about what would impress college admissions staff – and then choosing colleges by primarily focusing on what they wanted to study and they type of environment they wanted to study in, instead of US News ranking… we wouldn’t have this mess.

calmom · March 31, 2014, 3:53am

Do they all have an “epiphany?”

ariesathena · March 31, 2014, 3:56am

Just a thought on the OP’s daughter (and my apologies if I’ve missed a discussion about this): she might have demonstrated plenty of passion for her ECs, written great essays, and had great recommendations - but not communicated to colleges that she would pursue similar extracurricular activities in college.

That can be a death knell for applications to smaller schools, which need students to be actively participating in campus life in order to have any campus life at all.

Likewise, the schools may have had a good idea what she would do once on campus, but had already taken students who met other institutional needs (ED, full pay, or from rural Mississippi) who are going to do those activities.

Just a thought.

cptofthehouse · March 31, 2014, 3:58am

The thing is, sometimes mistakes happen. It happened in my school district one time that has been publically released, because the mistake was caught. I’ve heard some anecdotes where there were mistakes. There was a mistake made in my oldest son’s application process that did was not to his advantage, that I caught early, so the RD schools were not so affected but the early schools were. Mistakes are made. At one school, there was so much confusion with a kid with the same first/last name and similar soc security number that to this day I don’t know if my one son got his own acceptance or the other kids’s in that we and his high school had to correct the college 3 times on the mix up. Few mistakes are caught so there are few mistakes of record. I give CMU a lot of credit for admitting a mistake on a kid, reconsidering him after the fact and accepting him when a query was made. Some schools might have just brushed it off and that would have been the end of the matter.

Now I’m not saying that there is a high chance of this, but I am a bit curious in this case. Probably not enough to raise the fuss, but what if an inquiry shows the wrong SAT scores were sent out RD or the some other mistake that could have tipped the balance at all of the schools in this case? It is possible.

I think Jonri has a great post there. However, the fact of the matter is that if there are 10 kids that come up about the same for one spot, there is an element of luck that comes into play. Even with essay evaluations, luck can make a difference. Write an essay about the death of a loved one that hits someone who is feeling the pain and assessing the essays, and it can be a “hit”. If the reader happens to have read three such essays, maybe even written better than the fourth, in a short period of time, that same essay could land you a low score in that category. So luck can really make a difference.

As for hooks, some of them are not announced. Most highly selective schools do have pools where athletes, URMs, Legacy, development and other categories are assessed separately. Those pools often have much higher accept rates than the general pool even with hooks. Luck plays a role in those hooks too. If the classics department chair is knocking on admissions door and demanding more majors at a school, and there is weak field of those citing that interest, the chances are higher for those who happen to list that as a major. Next year, there could be many more so majoring. It all depends on timing and luck at times.

lookingforward · March 31, 2014, 4:09am

The only separation I know about is recruited athletes. And developmental will likely already have communicated to the dean (or their donor reps will have.) Otherwise, for what I have seen, one big pool. So while it may be possible, I just wouldn’t say “most.” Agree that adcoms know a lot about department needs and trends in that. And for activities like theater or orchestra.

ariesathena · March 31, 2014, 4:32am

“Most highly selective schools do have pools where athletes, URMs, Legacy, development and other categories are assessed separately.”

Legacies: both of my alma maters explain their legacy policies. One explicitly has a separate pool and applicaiton process for legacies. The other has the same pool, same process, and almost identical results (IIRC, SAT scores of legacy admits are within 10 points of non-legacy admits).

Developmental admits at, at least in my understanding, exceedingly rare. The number that any given school has is likely swamped out by yearly variations in its incoming class size.

Athletes: each coach will have one, or a few, students whom he can pull in per team; otherwise, it’s a situation of needing certain athletes for certain spots on certain sports. You might be a great pitcher, but if the team already has three and the coach pulled in a fourth, your pitching isn’t helping you to get in the door.

ucbalumnus · March 31, 2014, 6:16am

cptofthehouse:

I have a family friend who is looking at the very top schools for his son. SATs, nearly perfect, probably a NM candidate as his PSAT score is above what it usually takes in all but a year or two in that history. Currently #1 or 2 at his very rigorous prep school where about half the kids get into ivies and such highly selective schools, and taking very rigorous courses. ECs are average, however, for a kid at his schools. Not a huge leader. Nothing that stands out as a hook. No legacy, no celebrity, no development, no URM, no athletic or anything to take him out of the pool.

Stats wise , he’s a match , and likely way up there for even HPY which is what his parents are salivating for him to achieve. Anything else is going to be a disappointment of sorts. The kid really does do a lot in ECs, just that they are mostly school related and nothing that makes your head turn. So what are his chances?

Probably very low, even compared to the published admission rates at the super-selective schools. The super-selective schools can fill their frosh classes several times over with students of his stats. His stats are necessary, but not sufficient, for admission to such schools. Meaning that his stats won’t deny him, but he lacks the “hook” or extraordinary achievement or award that is likely necessary for admission.

ucbalumnus · March 31, 2014, 6:23am

Still, Rutgers and some of the SUNYs (and other state universities in the area like UMass) appear to be quite solid schools that students in those states should not have to see as “beneath” them. Why is that the state universities are so disdained by many in that region?

calmom · March 31, 2014, 6:23am

@usbalumnus - I disagree re the prep school kid-- this statement: “Currently #1 or 2 at his very rigorous prep school where about half the kids get into ivies and such highly selective schools,” - changes the equation. Some schools are essentially Ivy feeders – situations where the ad coms will accept a bunch of kids and take the school counselor’s recommendations very seriously.

Still not a predictable outcome – but in that setting the kid can and should get reliable advice from the school counselor.

Kid sounds like he has $$$ and if so, would be well advised to go ED or SCEA, depending on his top choice school.

The point is that the EC’s function as a way to distinguish the kid and make him stand out. But if the name of the high schools is “Andover” (or something equally prestigious) and he’s at the top of his class— that is a stand-out quality.

awcntdb · March 31, 2014, 6:51am

@ariesathena - Another pool separation that occurs is with homeschoolers.

YoHoYoHo · March 31, 2014, 7:35am

“I do think the essays can be the issue, even when vetted by others.”

“Amen. The biggest trap there is that there are plenty of essays that would be fine in isolation, but that appear identical to 1/3 of the other essays in the pile. If you haven’t read a college essay before – or even if you’re an English teacher who reads a handful every year – you probably won’t realize this. I’m often amazed how many kids will independently come up with near-identical sentences to describe their experiences. It’s unavoidable that the reader gets frustrated reading the seventh indistinguishable sports or community service essay in a row.”

For any person applying to a lottery school, the above paragraph will matter as much as your 2300+ SAT score. Please memorize it. And, yes, it is better to NOT have an EPIPHANY. How many 17 year old kids have a real epiphany? How many adults, for that matter?

I personally like Bauld “On Writing the Application Essay” with his descriptions of the commonly used essays. Can’t remember many of them, but some include: community service, foreign travel, sports winning the big game, death of a loved one, this is my bedroom, my hero is my parent, etc.

<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Writing-College-Application-Essay-Anniversary/dp/0062123998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396250810&sr=1-1&keywords=bauld+essay”>http://www.amazon.com/Writing-College-Application-Essay-Anniversary/dp/0062123998/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396250810&sr=1-1&keywords=bauld+essay</a>

sally305 · March 31, 2014, 11:10am

This is the “epiphany” more people should have.

A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

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