A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

VAMom2015 · April 3, 2014, 11:51pm

OK, I didn’t read the entire thread. I’ll throw in my 2 cents. I think the essays are where you show who you are as a person. I don’t even understand where a student would discuss a professor from a class they sat on unless the question was “Why Anytown College”, and even then, it should be about the student, not the professor. So when I see these outstanding students not getting in, I have to turn to the essays where ADCOMS either say “I want to meet this student” or they say “Oh, here’s another high stats student”.

This is just my humble opinion. I could be completely wrong. But I have a DS who got into a lottery school (and I was mentally preparing him to not get in–since it is such a difficult thing). He had another student from his school get accepted to HYPB and maybe some others. Both were from the public school (when we have the #1 public magnet in the country just down the street that seems to take the majority of Ivy slots for the area). Both are similar non-hooked and similar family, heritage, etc backgrounds as OP’s D.

Both these students were excellent writers. I didn’t see anyone else’s essays, but I know my DS received personalized postcards from several of his applied-to schools commenting on how well they liked his essays. So that’s where my conclusions come from. My DS didn’t write about his potential school, he wrote about his love for a hobby and a the connection he had with a family member due to that hobby. He showed a love for learning, and a love for other people. It was personal and it was memorable and touching and a bit soul bearing. I truly think it was what made the difference for him.

partyof5 · April 4, 2014, 12:09am

Peppered through this thread are assumptions, innuendo, and flat out fallacies about Black/URM applicants and top tier schools. It is well documented that test scores and gpa are only part of the equation. Honestly if schools only used gpa and test scores, the entire ivy population would be majority Asian. I’ve yet to see an Asian parent whining or insinuating a white applicant took their child’s spot, yet it is implied over and over in multiple threads that an URM took a white applicants spot. It really needs to stop. No school wants a homogeneous population, so they do the best they can at finding the right mix.

3girls3cats · April 4, 2014, 12:30am

Seriously? I suggest you read on. There are a lot of Asian kids and parents upset at what they perceive to be unofficial quotas on acceptances for Asian American kids.

@Poeme, I really liked your post and agree with a lot of it. I’m interested in your take on the difference between applications to grad school vs. undergrad. Do you think there’s an element of self-selection? Do you think there’s a greater appreciation for true ability vs. the kind of assertiveness/aggressiveness that’s rewarded in many high schools? Do the extra athletics/money/etc. factors disappear? Or perhaps it depends on the type of graduate education you seek?

apprenticeprof · April 4, 2014, 4:26am

I’m not Poeme (obviously), but at least for PhD programs, I think one major difference is that by the time grad school admissions come around, an admissions committee will have much, much more reliable data on which to evaluate a student than a college adcom does. For a humanities program, for instance, the most important factor will generally be a fairly lengthy writing sample. There’s no need to quibble about relatively minor differences on a GRE verbal score, because the writing sample provides a much better picture than that exam will of your potential for scholarly work. The good literature programs want to see a fairly good subject score just to make sure you’ve got some breadth in the field, but since you’re going to be specializing anyway, no one really cares if a medievalist happened to get a 660 rather than a 750 on a test that would have included everything from Beowulf to David Foster Wallace.

Since there’s an expectation of high proficiency in a particular area coming in, there isn’t as much room for taking student educational background into account. If you’ve gone to a mediocre school that never asked for a paper longer than five pages, or are in the sciences but have never done lab work before, you simply don’t have the necessary experience to be admitted, and you’ll have to apply after you’ve gotten an MA or done post-bac research. Schools aren’t going to take a total stab at the dark about your potential.

In addition, holistic factors matter much, much less. A given program is interested in you for your proven ability in a particular subject. They don’t care much about your less than perfect grades or scores in a totally unrelated discipline. They don’t care that you’re likely to be a great addition to the school orchestra, or that you did a lot of charity work. They care that you will be a successful student, teacher, and scholar in their department.

A college admissions committee is, obviously, not looking to fill a much broader variety of institutional interests.

sorghum · April 4, 2014, 4:49am

Again, this confuses color with diversity. Surprisingly, ‘whites’ are not one homogeneous group.

ucbalumnus · April 4, 2014, 5:03am

Do you mean “non-academic” rather than “holistic” factors mattering much less, since PhD program admissions involves evaluating applicants using such factors as the writing samples you mentioned, undergraduate research, recommendations, etc. as well as courses and grades?

cobrat · April 4, 2014, 5:09am

Another important factor for PhD programs in history/poli-sci, especially if you’re studying non-US societies is proficiency in relevant foreign languages. For instance, modern Japanese history requires a reading proficiency in Japanese, Chinese, and one European language(Commonly French or German).

The language issue is one major stumbling block for so many folks I knew who were studying PhDs in those fields as failure to demonstrate language proficiency within a certain time period has caused them to either be delayed in their academic progress or tossed from the program altogether.

My father knew a few folks who were tossed from Chinese history PhD programs because they weren’t able to pass Japanese language** proficiency exams to the department’s standards to continue.

<ul>
<li>Modern and possibly some classical depending on period and research needs. </li>
</ul>

** Critical in studying modern Chinese history and also because there’s much critical scholarly literature/research written by Japanese scholars.

awcntdb · April 4, 2014, 7:28am

I read how the direction of this thread has changed, and it confirms why I think the college admissions would be better off with a blind system.

Yes, I know a blind system is controversial because of the obvious - groups who perceive they get an advantage from the current system think they will lose something. Their concern is valid given what is said in different threads on CC. But, the groups who feel they are disadvantaged have a point as well. However, the posts on this thread of who gets what treatment, who gains from this, who gains from that, holistic this, holistic that etc. really is a total unmitigated intellectual mess. More on blind admissions below - but let me provide the context for my thinking.

I may be beyond my intellectual pay grade here, but I never did understand what diversity is and clearly people in these posts have different opinions as well. I have reached my own conclusion that diversity is a political buzz word used to highlight something in a way only to gain some advantage. The mantra is if something is defined as diverse and adds to the differences in the environment, it must be good. One thing I have noticed is no evidence is required to actually prove that something, which is labeled diverse, actually is useful or advancing something. Just being called diverse is good enough to give it positive credibility.

What I do find rather confusing (and disingenuous) is that the same people who scream diversity at all costs the loudest seek to quell and silence the voices with which they disagree. This is just my observation, and I could be wrong, but diversity seems to be it is OK only if one believes what the people who claim to be diverse believe. But, believe different and you must be silenced. That does not sound like promoting other points-of-views to me. Again, just my observation - I could be wrong. No need to explain diversity to me because I will get a diverse (pun intended) set of opinions, which in the end just will add to more confusion of what it is and is not already.

I remembered this article from last year, which summed up how I thought about it - many will disagree, of course, and many will agree with the article. The point is though, there is no evidence backing up what in the world diversity is and why it is compelling to have this ambiguous principle driving the college admissions process. Here is the link to the article:

<a href=“http://www.nationalreview.com/article/347642/‘diversity’-magic-word”>http://www.nationalreview.com/article/347642/‘diversity’-magic-word</a>

Now, back to my blind admissions - what I would like to see is all names and identifying factors except male / female and state stripped from what adcoms see. The adcoms would focus on everything else: scores, gpa, ECs, essays, LORs etc.

That is a system where no one gains an advantage based on external factors that have nothing to do with education. The adcoms can choose based on differences in activities, schools, courses, whatever they want, but things that people cannot control (race, for example) should be taken out, so such factors cannot be used to penalize or advantage.

This could eliminate to a large degree this blaming and segmentation of the students in their own eyes. It is saddening to see asians students view themselves as needing 2400, whites needing 2280 and african americans thinking they only need 1880 and hispanics needing 1800 test scores to get to the same place. And the fight over which acronym took the spot of the SWF would be, at least, abated to a good degree. (Yes, I know adcoms can research on Facebook etc., but that is another issue. Plus, no one has time to do that every every applicant)

What is surprising to me is that adults who push this diversity thing seem to not realize how it makes students not even view themselves as worthy individuals. Not seeing themselves as individuals is the most destructive thing I have observed.

Kids post scores and stats immediately followed by “By the way, I am [place race or sub-group here].” Why no one seems to care that in interest of this thing called diversity the first thing students are asked to do is disavow their individualism and find an advantaged group to latch on to. That is not promoting anything good, in my view; that is pre-ordained, forced segregation. All in the effort to get into college.

Please excuse the long post, but something really needs to be done because it is a shame that in the college admissions process students are reduced to SWF, AA, Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Latino, etc. and many feel slighted that some group is getting better treatment somewhere, whether real or not.

I herald the day students are chosen for their individualism and not for some segregated group, which they may or may not be a part of, but conveniently find a way to join to get an advantage. If this is diversity, then please keep it. It is destructive to the souls of our kids who no longer see their own individual self-worth. That damage to the spirit is simply not worth it in the name of so-called diversity.

partyof5 · April 4, 2014, 9:03am

@awcntdb‌, I totally get what you are saying, and that would be nice. However, I do feel diversity is important, and that requires some manual intervention beyond gpa and scores. And before everyone starts screaming, diversity is not just color. If you strictly used test scores and gpas, you would have a campus full of fairly affluent kids. They are the only ones, for the most part, that have been in the better schools, and had unlimited test prep, etc, available to them. It’s one of several reasons, the SAT is being revamped. Kids who could afford to have tutors, etc are scoring higher. Should a lower income kid, whether they be white, black or other not be admitted because a score was lower? It’s not like once they get in, they are given separate work. I just feel that folks focus on scores, and you get the, " well my score was higher", or “I took more APs”. Unless you know how many APs a school offers, that’s not a valid comparison. I still don’t get the title of the thread, because there were swf from the ne admitted, she was just not one of them.

Pizzagirl · April 4, 2014, 11:02am

“Please excuse the long post, but something really needs to be done because it is a shame that in the college admissions process students are reduced to SWF, AA, Asian, Indian, Hispanic, Latino, etc. and many feel slighted that some group is getting better treatment somewhere, whether real or not.”

But they aren’t. You all on CC act as though the decision is made, then the “race card” is added on and it reverses the decision. “We want her, she’d be a great addition – oh, whoops, she’s Asian, into the reject pile she goes.” “He’s not worthy - oh, whoops, he’s black, now he is – where’s a white or Asian kid we can dump instead.” What part of HOLISTIC is not clear?

calmom · April 4, 2014, 11:10am

Exactly.

TheGFG · April 4, 2014, 11:46am

Good post, awcntdb. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Diversity needs to be defined more clearly and by a whole lot more than skin color. Most people are happy when that high achieving kid from a school where few graduate and where kids are lost to drugs and gang warfare daily, gets into an elite school with lower scores. That’s holistic, and that’s diverse, and that’s equal opportunity America. But when schools take first generation African blacks to fill the American dark skin quota, and they can get in with lower stats and mediocre profiles despite their ancestors not having been affected by racist America, people see that as questionable. (Not referring to the boy from the article per se. He seems well-qualified.) And when a mediocre student, whose parents are both doctors, lives in a large house in an excellent good school district her whole life but gets a break on admission over kids of other races just because her skin is dark, that’s not diversity and it’s not fair IMO. But since there are essays required, no on can cry foul because that URM’s essays could have been Pulitzer-prize worthy for all we know.

mamalion · April 4, 2014, 12:08pm

awch. . . , so racial and socio-economic diversity is bad, bad, bad, affirmative action is bad, but we got to get those gender numbers right, 'cause we all know that those boys need to be there in the right numbers, qualified or not? Can’t let in more girls 'cause they need to find their husbands? /wantOh, and while we’re at it, geography is important, too, because . . .

sally305 · April 4, 2014, 12:21pm

I agree with partyof5. Students’ accomplishments have to be taken in context. A student from an affluent community who has had every imaginable support and every imaginable advantage SHOULD be expected to end up with a well-rounded package for college. Not a good test taker? OK, we’ll sign you up for SAT prep classes and you can take it again and again. Falling behind in math? We’ll get you a tutor for that. Need a push with your field hockey skills? We’ll send you to a special camp for that this summer. Need to devote more time to your EC? That’s OK, honey, you don’t need to have a part-time job or take care of your siblings after school or fix yourself dinner because no one is around. Just focus on doing what is necessary for YOU to succeed.

Now contrast this student with one who has been a latch-key kid since fourth grade or has immigrant parents who don’t understand the nuances of the U.S. school system or lives in a tough neighborhood or has overcome substantial learning issues. The issue is not only race and socioeconomic status in isolation. It is what a student’s background means in the context of his challenges and achievements. Plus–and I know I will get flamed for this–we don’t yet live in a color-blind society. There is still racism and there are still assumptions being made all the time about people based on how they look. There has been a huge rise in hate groups since the election of our first black (well, biracial) president. Read the comments on any news site if you don’t believe racism still exists. Heck, you can read the posts of some of my high school classmates on Facebook.

TheGFG · April 4, 2014, 12:53pm

You make good points, Sally, but the admissions officers are not omniscient and thus are incapable of accurately discerning all the relevant factors from an application. It’s ludicrous to believe that some person sitting in an office can adequately judge a student’s real situation, and it’s not always possible within the application framework for a student to reveal all the important details that give his story context. Where does he write “Oh, by the way, even though everyone I know at my school had tons of private tutoring and test prep, my parents couldn’t afford it so I never did.” Should he even write that if there were an appropriate space, or would it be seen as excuse-making?

In my town, homes range from trailers to 1.5 million dollar houses, so zip code alone won’t tell the story for a specific applicant. LOTS of my kids’ classmates receive private tutoring, test prep and admissions counseling, as well as lessons of every kind for their EC’s. We were not able to provide that for our kids, yet their scores and performance were judged compared to their peers from the same high school who had those advantages. D was an athlete who never had professional, private coaching in her sport, yet had to compete against students in our town and state who did. Where does that show in an application? Income won’t always tell the story of what you can afford either. Some of us have to help support family members in the US and abroad, and none or little of that may be evident in the application or even the FA form. Do adcoms just assume because a kid is from X suburb s/he must have had certain advantages? How is that fair? And income does not equate with allocation either. What about the kid with rich but selfish parents? Is it his fault his mom and dad blow their money on their own entertainment and spend nothing on his education or skill development? Why should he be judged compared to other rich kids whose parents paid for all that?

I’m not sure it’s a good idea to throw out holistic factors, but let’s not act like that’s a fairer system than stats-based one.

austinmshauri · April 4, 2014, 12:54pm

Why assume that the AA who were admitted to a particular college were any less qualified than either the caucasians who were admitted or those who were denied? And how would you possibly know whether the admitted students had “mediocre profiles” or “lower stats” than the typical student accepted at that college?

Just because a student your son and his friends deemed mediocre, at best, (in the “Not Taking Results Personally” thread) got accepted to Georgetown and he didn’t doesn’t mean (a) she was actually “mediocre” or (b) stole his spot. Making the assumption that kids you don’t deem worthy received acceptances because of things you know nothing about (good LORs written by people who “feel sorry” for the “less qualified” student or based on the color of their skin) is beyond distasteful.

saintfan · April 4, 2014, 1:06pm

There’s the rub . . . . people have fallen back to the idea that minority student are “mediocre”. The young man who “ran the table” with admissions had excellent stats. Nothing about his publish profile suggests mediocrity.

TheGFG · April 4, 2014, 1:06pm

You can’t necessarily know about a specific student, but you can look at the big picture. The average scores of URM’s at the elite schools are lower than those of students of well-represented ethnicities. What can you conclude from that?

Regarding all the claims of “but you just don’t know…”, I’d say that a kid can know as much or more about a fellow student he went to school with for 12 years than the adcom will from just reading his application. And if you’ve been in English classes with that kid and peer edited his essays many times, you have a pretty darn good idea of how good his college essay could possibly be.

By the way, you need to re-read that thread, since the student accepted to Georgetown was not a URM, so quit misrepresenting my posts. And no one “stole” my kids’ spots, since they happily attended elites ranked higher than Georgetown.

sally305 · April 4, 2014, 1:16pm

TheGFG, I appreciate the points you are making. And I completely agree that zip codes don’t tell the whole story (our community must be like yours that way).

But this is where essays can be helpful–they can describe the challenges a child has faced and his or her efforts to overcome them. I don’t think it is making excuses to tell a story about one’s life circumstances. Hopefully, adcoms CAN see through the empty claims of minority status that some use to give themselves an edge. For instance, my daughter has a classmate who is Hispanic on her mother’s side. Her mom was raised in the U.S. but the girl’s grandparents are VERY wealthy Spaniards. She brags about the oceanfront villa and the servants when it suits her, but now she is planning to use her ethnicity “hook” to advantage in college applications. It’s ridiculous since she has a regular-sounding surname and looks completely Caucasian, and her family is pretty affluent. I would love to see what kind of essay she could write that would help her in the admissions process.

sally305 · April 4, 2014, 1:22pm

This I disagree with. Kids are not astute judges of writing quality no matter what they think. I have seen this with some of my kids’ friends who are regarded by their friends to be “just so smart” and “fantastic writers.” There’s a lot of pomposity in a lot of what they write, particularly on class essays. I was one of those kids when I was that age. I might have thought I knew everything there was to know about good writing but I didn’t.

A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

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