A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

EllieMom · April 5, 2014, 9:59pm

The other thing that I would disagree with is that result of having a diverse student population (even one selected from a qualified applicant pool using a holistic approach where students with "hooks’ may be more likely to win the “lottery” than those without) would be “more societal fractures, distrust in others’ intelligence and skills, and sadness about whom you are.” I expect there is a lot more of that among nervous parents of college seekers than there is among the students at the kind of universities we’ve been discussing.

I don’t want the type of society portrayed in “Divergent,” where people are divided into predetermined groups and identify only with others in their own narrowly-defined set of peers. (Sorry for the pop culture reference, but I’m a big YA fiction fan.)

When they go to college, students live together, study together, party together, and complain about professor so-and-so together. There are going to be stresses and strains. But, in my experience, there’s nothing like sharing life experiences with someone who is at first glance very different from yourself to convince you that we’re not all that different from one another after all.

Hanna · April 5, 2014, 10:09pm

“Since this is an artificial boost and since only they only have classes for the SATI, does everyone expect that kids who did test prep would do much better on the SATI than the SATIIs?”

You can buy test prep for SAT IIs. There are plenty of courses out there, and I and many others offer individual tutoring.

collegealum314 · April 5, 2014, 10:10pm

If you read Karabel’s “The Chosen”, the rhetoric behind the Jewish quotas was basically identical to the modern day justifications behind diversity.

Hanna · April 5, 2014, 10:13pm

“If you read Karabel’s “The Chosen”, the rhetoric behind the Jewish quotas was basically identical to the modern day justifications behind diversity.”

What conclusion do you draw from that?

arwarw · April 5, 2014, 10:13pm

So true. Sadly, I think some otherwise competitive applicants sink their own ship with the application. They see it at as just a form to be filled out - cramming in as much stuff as possible. Whereas, I think what you leave out can be as important as what you put in.

collegealum314 · April 5, 2014, 10:16pm

My conclusion is that there isn’t necessarily a huge moral distinction between the two.

collegealum314 · April 5, 2014, 10:20pm

You can get a $10 book on a SATII. There are too many SATIIs to offer individual courses.

While taking an SAT course is not uncommon, I’d say the number of ivy caliber kids who get individual tutoring is vanishing small. The primary value of taking an SAT course rather than buying a Princeton review book at the bookstore or checking it out from the library is hearing the lessons read aloud–having that extra sense probably makes it sink in better.

lookingforward · April 5, 2014, 10:25pm

Yes, they sink their own ship.

jonri · April 5, 2014, 10:38pm

Just throwing this out there…

I think one problem is that we don’t agree on what the aim of affirmative action is. Once upon a time, it was to make up for the injustice of the past when the descendants of American slaves had to deal with the legacy of slavery,segregation, Jim Crow laws and all of the horrific burdens American society put upon them. I think that white Americans in the aggregate supported these policies. Sure, plenty of people didn’t–but I think most white Americans recognize the playing field hadn’t been level and something had to be done about it.

However…anyone who isn’t an ostrich knows that a disproportionate # of black Americans at top colleges are not the descendants of American slaves. Instead, they come from West Indian, African and, more rarely, Latin American backgrounds. Among those from African immigrant families, a few African nations are overrepresented in terms of the total # of people from that background in the US. The most striking example of this is Nigeria. Almost all of these immigrants were middle-class professionals. Their children do well here. Indeed, Amy Chua’s new book examines 6 groups which she says are “pre-wired” for success in the US. One of these groups is Nigerians. I have NOT read the book and I’m NOT agreeing with it. I just note that one of the groups she includes in this group is Nigerians because as an immigrant group they have been unusually successful in the US.

The young man who did the Ivy League “sweep” is the son of immigrants from Ghana. Presumably they were not discriminated against on the basis of their color while growing up there. They both were educated in the US and are nurses.

I’m going to assume for the moment that the young man in question did benefit from affirmative action. I know that I can’t really know that as a fact–but please make that assumption just for the sake of argument.

Should that young man benefit from affirmative action? I live in NYC and I’ll tell you that many of my African-American neighbors don’t think he should. IME, they tend to feel more strongly about that than whites. Part of the reason is that many African immigrant families try to keep their children from befriending “true” African-Americans. West Indians do the same. A generation ago, Cape Verdeans in Southern New England did too.

A generation ago, there was also a similar split among Hispanics. At that point, the majority of Hispanics at top schools were Cuban. Many Mexican Americans and Puerto Ricans were VERY angry about the fact that Cubans also benefited from affirmative action and were lumped in with Hispanics. Most of the Cubans were the children of educated professionals who had fled Castro. Some of their parents had even received their college degrees from US universities. In contrast, the Mexican and Puerto Rican kids were almost always the first in their families to go to college. Today, Cuban-Americans aren’t considered Hispanic for affirmative action purposes at many, if not most top colleges.

I’m torn about this–I think that after one generation, the children of African and West Indian kids are indistinguishable from the children of American slaves. That said, there are two problems. One is that we may think as a nation we are solving a problem that we haven’t solved. If we look at the percentage of African-Americans who earn college degrees are we factoring in the fact that some relatively high percentage of that subset are the children of post Civil Rights era immigrants? The second is a problem of fairness. Is it fair that Asian immigrant kids in the aggregate have a much worse chance of getting into colleges than immigrant African kids? Factor in the fact that the official language of Ghana is English so immigrants from that country arrive here fluent in English and able to read and write it while the Asians do not.

As I said, I’m genuinely torn about this. Is it better for the US as a society to use affirmative action to increase the number of educated and successful black Americans even if many of them are the children of post Civil Rights era immigrants? Or should affirmative action be used solely to beneft the descendants of American slaves?

Again, please understand that I’m not saying what the answer to this question should be. I’m just saying that I think it’s one we ought to be asking.

Jssaab1 · April 5, 2014, 10:55pm

@fondmemories There are Asians/whites/Purples that YOU would not want on your science fair team even though they are the smartest I bet. Would rather have them get the last spot at an ivy over your 'because their stats are “better than yours” ?

How about the smart kid who cheats who would have been ahead of you in the rankings even with out cheating? Or the one that steals the book everyone needs in the library so that she is the only one who does well on the final. Her stats were better than yours even before she took that test you ended up doing poorly on. Or the complete bore, who even you do not want on your joint project because he is always late and really adds nothing but has “better stats and ECs” than you, yes he should get a spot but not you…

Yeah, and I want THAT guy working in my company because HE WENT TO AN IVY… not…

I truly hope that the Adcoms can weed though the applications and recommendations and determine who really deserves it…I think they can, as is obvious from the gasp of disbelief we see here every spring and I can only hope that they figured out who felt they deserved it and only accepted those WHO DID, … but my stats are better…

mom2and · April 5, 2014, 10:57pm

Private SAT tutoring is pretty common among top students in middle to upper middle class NE suburbs. I know very few who have taken courses and many more with tutoring. Cost can be comparable or cheaper than the widely known courses. Probably uncommon in other places, but pretty common here among kids aiming for Ivys as well as those with much less lofty ambitions.

psalcal · April 5, 2014, 11:06pm

@jonri‌ - Your post is thoughtful.

Personally, whether it’s a fair assumption or unfair assumption, there are races and cultures that do not put a high value on higher education. In those communities, it’s much more difficult for a child to succeed. They are often succeeding in spite of parents and community… while others (many asians, many caucasians) succeed in part as a result of parents and community. I would think most of us would want those people to be rewarded for their efforts in difficult circumstances.

As you suggest though, there isn’t an effective way of evaluating if that’s true in individual cases.

There is no easy answer. As others have said, I think most schools get enough qualified applications that everyone they accept is qualified regardless of race, and I have no objection to a school body wanting their school to have a mix of race, culture, religion, etc. It’s also not the privileged caucasian’s “fault” they were born into privilege.

There is no perfect system. It’s not perfect to evaluate test scores and grades and nothing else. It’s not perfect to throw those things out either.

EllieMom · April 5, 2014, 11:22pm

The place where I disagree with this thinking is that I don’t think [name your favorite elite institution] is using affirmative action as a kind of social engineering. I think they’re building a community that reflects the values of the administration.

That’s why football players get preferential treatment…no one is saying that there needs to be more football players among the movers and shakers of society. Harvard just wants to beat Yale.

That’s why legacies get preferential treatment…no one is saying we need more old-money leaders. Princeton just wants to keep that endowment healthy.

That’s why celebrities get the fast-track in admissions…Brown knows they’ll get press if Emma Watson moves into the freshman dorm.

That’s why (this year) they may be looking for tuba players…the band sounds weak without oom-pah-pahs.

And, for whatever reason (nefarious or virtuous) many of the elite institutions have decided that a multi-ethnic, differently-talented student population is what they want. It’s not to address social wrongs or current slights. It’s because the powers that be have decided that that’s what they want the face of their university to look like.

You may agree or disagree with their choices…but as long as they’re selling what college applicants want to buy (e.g., the value of a college education at an elite U.S. university), they can and will continue to make them. As parents and prospective students, we can decide to play the game or not.

Data10 · April 5, 2014, 11:29pm

The participants were ~80,000 students who attended 8 colleges in the University of California system ~10 years ago (all the UC colleges except for Merced and Riverside). I’m not familiar with how well the UC system met financial need during this period. Note that income is correlated with many other variables, and this listed regression coefficient was how much parents’ income added to the prediction beyond the other factors. It’s very likely that you’d have different results if you looked at income alone vs how much income adds to prediction beyond the other variables.

calmom · April 5, 2014, 11:33pm

@Data10

I’m not familiar with the stats you cite — but if true, then that just reinforces my frustration with the teach-to-the-test direction of early education, and my sense that SATs do a poor job of measuring college readiness.

The math SAT doesn’t run into the same issues, because with mathematics does lead to single correct answers, at least within the level of math that is tested. In math, the process of reducing problems to simplest terms is an effective approach.

But the “critical” reading model put forth with the SAT has the opposite impact: it rewards simple, conventional thinking over the complex. I put “critical” in quotes because the process of choosing the “best” answer in the SAT is world’s apart from the type of debate that might take place in a college literature class, or the degree of analysis that college profs expect to see in student writing, especially at the elite schools.

calmom · April 5, 2014, 11:43pm

@mathyone

No, it’s the parent who is blaming the MIT rejection on demographic factors. For all we know the daughter is delighted to head of to Chicago in the fall and only applied to 3 Ivies and MIT at her parent’s insistence.

Shrinkrap · April 5, 2014, 11:45pm

"Should that young man benefit from affirmative action? I live in NYC and I’ll tell you that many of my African-American neighbors don’t think he should. "

@jonri‌ ; Where do you live? I grew up in NYC ( Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx) too, and I can’t even imagine having that conversation. People I knew would wonder what I was talking about and why. Not only did I know very few AA’s talking about college, fewer were talking about “away college”, and fewer still about colleges that had competitive admissions. But that WAS a long time ago.

BTW, I would have a hard time distinguishing who in the diaspora did not suffer as a result slavery. Assuming there is merit in the who owes who argument, my mom’s family, and my husbands family are from the West Indies, and I am intrigued by what growing up in the majority might lend to a child’s development, but there is no doubt in my mind that the folks in the West Indies did not suffer as a result of slavery. Maybe the idea is that it only counts if it was at the hands of the US, or only if the US benefited more directly?

“I’m torn about this–I think that after one generation, the children of African and West Indian kids are indistinguishable from the children of American slaves.”

I think my mom (1st gen) would have said don’t marry a West Indian, and husband’s (born in Jamaica) mom would say don’t marry a “yank”!

Ooops! We definitely bring different things to parenting.

awcntdb · April 5, 2014, 11:46pm

I appreciate the responses. There is much here. Below is a synopsis response:

One thing interestingly missing from many responses is any factual evidence my observations are wrong. It is fine to disagree with a point-of-view, but I got here not by thinking in a basement, but by reading CC.

Nothing was directed at one person. They were observations of actual posts made by too many students on CC. It may not apply to you and your child, but it applies to many others.

I recommend reading the acceptance and rejection profiles of schools and note how many students state exactly what I pointed out. It is eye-opening.

Please look at the frowning faces on the asian student profiles. Look at the AA profiles, which say state they think they got in because they are a URM. Look at the profile of the many white students who with sighs and dejected statements of I am white, so I have little chance.

I did not make those up statements nor ask the students to write those or ask them to put frowny faces. Those are the true reflections of how the students feel about themselves and view the process overall. I am just reading and interpreting, not creating. I know no other way to interpret how many students now view themselves. It is sad and why more people do not find it sad as well is another question in itself.

It may surprise many that I agree totally it is not all about test scores, and it is about the application as a whole etc. etc. I hire people and the same approach that works there. Often, I do not hire the person with the highest GPA or who went to the Ivy because they were not the best candidate overall. HOWEVER, anyone who is not hired does not think he got shafted by a preference instituted to seeming work against him.

And that is the elephant in the room here - students do see a process that seems to be built on instituted preferences. It really does not matter how much parents and other adults disagree with me, what matters is the terrible results of how students feel about themselves is real, as evidenced by students own statements. Many students, groups, males, females, ethnicities and the like feel shafted by the system in one way or the other, rightfully or wrongly. Some feel advantaged by it at the cost of another group, but they pay for it in socially.

As I said in my post, students live in the world of results and any policies, which make students feel less about themselves and makes one group seem to be favored at the expense of another, cannot be and is not good, no matter what the policies are solving.

Results matter and my observation is the results of what it is being done to the psyche of students is not worth it, regardless of how much good people think is being done. Sometimes the end result of good intentions are very bad unintended consequences.

And until anyone can show me that colleges are more peaceful and integrated and that all students view themselves positively because of these policies, I contend the policies are not worth it.

Thanks again for your replies.

TheGFG · April 6, 2014, 12:00am

There have been a lot of posts on this thread recently that give hypotheticals in which the so-called privileged Caucasian or high-achieving Asian is painted as having had an easier, well-paved road to accomplishment by virtue of various factors such as the supposed inherent privilege of their race, affluence, academic help, community and parental support. They are therefore flatter and less interesting than some hypothetical URM applicants who are supposed to have developed more attractive and vibrant qualities by virtue of their greater struggle and disadvantaged life circumstances. Hmm. Do these hypotheticals have a real basis in fact? I am not convinced personality is not the overriding determinant; some people are simply more dynamite than others and that personality will manifest regardless of environment. Besides, couldn’t we also hypothetically assume that less privileged students with less stimulating home and community environments are more likely to be dull and boring, than the reverse?

I think these are stereotypes that have crept into people’s thinking and now are seen as justifications for diversity, All white would be boring. All Asian would be boring. What about all female? Is that boring? We have all female colleges, don’t we? What about all black? We have HBC’s too. They should have the most interesting student bodies of any type of college, if blacks are more likely to have struggled more in society and thus developed special qualities.

And Asian mom told me that her son constantly laments that people assume he is boring because he is an Asian. They assume all he does is study and all he wants to talk about is test scores. That’s sad, and we see that attitude reflected in jokes about the typical Asian applicant who plays tennis and violin, and is on the math team. Assuming that too many Asians in a school would be boring, means we accept that Asians are mostly all alike. Hmm. Do we assume that about other ethnic groups/genders?

calmom · April 6, 2014, 12:10am

@awcntdb – But what are you hiring for? If I was hiring computer software developers – I’d look only to their programming abilities. I wouldn’t care about gender or ethnicity.

But if I was the casting director for a beverage commercial… diversity might be as important to me as acting or singing ability.

The elite colleges are trying to build a diverse community. Not because that is politically correct, but because that’s the vision of what they want their college to look like, and that’s what many students also want in a college. So diversity counts.

It is not definitive. My daughter got into an elite college with weaker stats with an demographic profile that is over-represented at the college. She happened to offer something else that the college wanted.

A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

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