A parent's cautionary tale – SWF- Northeast need not apply?

<p>You’re setting up a strawman, Pizzagirl. Has anyone on this thread actually advocated letting in all of the students with 2400s, then going to the 2390s, and so on as their preferred admissions strategy? I think everyone acknowledges a) that certain minor differences in stats aren’t significant and b) that there are other factors that should be in play. </p>

<p>The questions at issue are
-when does a difference stop being minor
-which other factors should be in play

  • how heavily they should be weighed</p>

<p>There’s a lot of middle ground between “let’s just rack and stack applicants” and “I have some questions about some of the admissions priorities.” </p>

<p>As the population in the US grows, and with it the population of high school seniors and of high-performing high school seniors – the number of potential HYPMS students will increase. The beds at these schools are not going to increase to meet the need. Every year we could get many more of those students who put unhappy icons next to their posts.</p>

<p>Instead of focusing on how to make those students happier by admitting them to HYP, (which is what awc is doing) I think the emphasis should be on expanding the list of schools as desirable as HYP. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I want to stress that I think Northwestern and Tufts and Emory and a couple dozen of other universities and LACs are amazing schools – the problem seems to be that too many kids feel that they get shafted if they don’t get into HYPMS. So let’s shift the focus, and try to figure out how to convince people like this poster that UChicago is as prestigious and impressive as all those schools that turned her down.</p>

<p>Topics like this on cc get 43 pgs of responses. Some things do not change.</p>

<p>@calmom - I totally agree no one gets in without something extra, especially at the elite schools. </p>

<p>However, and it is a big however, students do think they are getting shafted by things they believe beyond their control, such as their ethnicity and skin color. They cannot change those aspects of themselves, and they think those characteristics are being used against them in many cases.</p>

<p>My post is from the point of-view of the students. It is fine to not believe it is not a big deal, but, as adults, we still need to deal with that is how the students feel and see the big picture. </p>

<p>And, from a fundamental philosophical perspective, it has zero to do with feeling entitled; absolutely nothing at all. It is about feeling / thinking one is not getting equal treatment and the inequality results from use of basic physical characteristics.</p>

<p>There is a moral disconnect here I do not get: is not using preferences of race and ethnicity to gain entrance to schools the exact same practice used in the Jim Crow South to keep blacks out of schools? Blacks were not of the right race and ethnicity. We, as a country, deemed that morally wrong. So, why was it wrong to use ethnicity and skin color to group people and keep them out of schools, but now it OK to use the same criteria in the college admissions process to get preferred people in (whoever is the preferred flavor of the day)? The answer is it is not OK because it is the exact same practice. </p>

<p>Using ethnicity and skin color is morally wrong in both cases, with the only difference being a shift in whom gets hurt in the process. If it was wrong to hurt blacks with such a preference process, it logically follows it is wrong to hurt any other group or race with the same process. </p>

<p>“Instead of focusing on how to make those students happier by admitting them to HYP, (which is what awc is doing) I think the emphasis should be on expanding the list of schools as desirable as HYP. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I want to stress that I think Northwestern and Tufts and Emory and a couple dozen of other universities and LACs are amazing schools – the problem seems to be that too many kids feel that they get shafted if they don’t get into HYPMS.”</p>

<p>And in other news, if you can’t stay at the Ritz, the Four Seasons is pretty darn nice too. </p>

<p>People who don’t ALREADY think "there are lots of wonderful schools beyond HYP (or HYPSM or whatever cute acronym you want) are just too dumb for words, and not worth the time of day. </p>

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<p>If you can’t handle an OVERWHELMING likelihood of rejection, don’t engage in competitive activities in which there is a good chance you will lose. It’s pretty simple. I have one child who thrives on competition and another who avoids it. The one who likes it suffers rejection all the time, but she bounces back because she doesn’t measure her self-worth through the micro-judgments of others. She is focused on her long-term goals and is able to change course when the path she is taking doesn’t produce the results she wants.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, awcntbd seems to be the spokesperson for the “Everybody Gets a Trophy” generation. Some people here apparently are raising kids that have rarely heard the word “no,” have parents who intervene to make their problems go away, and have been taught since birth that they deserve more than other people because they are more special. </p>

<p>Those of us who have to hire these kids when they get out of college know what a huge pain they are in the workplace. They are whiny and demanding. They are NOT resilient or adaptable. I deal with them every single day. </p>

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<p>Let’s take it one step further (in my perfect idealist world) and make it about matching kids to colleges instead of trying find the “best” or “most prestigious” school. Not everyone thrives in that kind of rarified atmosphere, even if they have talent to compete there. Some people are held down by a school where they’re more intellectually gifted than the majority of the other students, but others take that as an opportunity to be a leader. </p>

<p>Maybe the adcoms are able to spot something we can’t in those students who are so broken by their Ivy rejections. How are those kids going to deal with a class in which they are at the middle or even the bottom of the pack instead of being alpha wolf? Could the very reaction that awcntdb finds upsetting be the reason why those students are not right for the schools that have received rejections from? (Strawman, I admit, but something to think about.) </p>

<p>Sorry, awc, I disagree that it is morally wrong to use those factors in admissions. If you can’t see the difference between that and civil rights abuses of the past, there is no point in arguing with you. There are plenty of schools that don’t consider race/ethnicity in admissions, they are not the ‘elite’ schools so many want to attend though. My child wished to attend a school with a diverse student body and looked for that. She knew it made her admission chances slimmer. Everyone deserving cannot get in.</p>

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<p>That’s the thing I LIKE about a good reading of CC—it’s not all “chance me” and “why H is better than S”. If you look, you’ll discover a whole range of schools that students and parents can get excited about. University of Rochester, for example, is a gem! And before reading CC, I had no idea it would be such a fantastic match to our daughter. </p>

<p>This is the kind of information that was not available to me when I was a student…and I fear is missing for a wide range of students even today. The “colleges for 3.0-3.5 students” threads are a wealth of information, even for the 3.9 kid. I sent the “public LACs” link some poster shared to one of my friends who is looking for a smaller school, but wants a public rather than private option.</p>

<p>D may have the stats to enter the lottery, but I doubt that she’ll even apply to any Ivy or CHYMPS (that’s my own personal favorite acronym). Her attitude is, “Why waste the money when there are other schools that I like just as well and that I have a lot better chance of getting into?” From reading CC, she (and I) realize that she is competing for not entitled to a spot at those “second tier” (HATE that term) schools. So, using the question "would I be happy as a student there?"and admittedly probably too many school visits, she’s finding other schools that she wants to go to where her chances are better. She’s going to use ED/EA/PR applications to develop a strategy that will work for her and keep stress to a minimum next year, another thing we would not have understood without CC. And if she is forced to go to the same disappointing flagship state U that her mom did, she’s good with that, too…even though it’s not her first choice.</p>

<p>Going back many pages (but just a day) to Jonri’s post about affirmative action, when she asks, “As I said, I’m genuinely torn about this. Is it better for the US as a society to use affirmative action to increase the number of educated and successful black Americans even if many of them are the children of post Civil Rights era immigrants? Or should affirmative action be used solely to benefit the descendants of American slaves?”</p>

<p>I think some can argue that affirmative action also works to counteract existing prejudice and bias and racial discrimination in our country today. For example, policies like stop and frisk that seem to target people of color – whether they are descendants of American slaves or children of immigrants. The (erroneous) belief that the only reason blacks and Hispanics are at the Ivies is because they get in despite their low academic performance could support the need for some type of affirmative action. </p>

<p>The OP has taken a lot of heat, even as this discussion meanders, for posing what emerges as indisputable truth: it is harder these days for white female applicants from the Northeast. The criticisms have fallen into two categories: (1) how can anyone be naïve enough to think that their D/S will get into ANYWHERE these days, since we are now in lotto-land, and (2) it is not-so-veiled racism (at worst) or elitism (at best) to voice these sentiments. </p>

<p>As to the alleged naivete, the OP showed that he was instead a sophisticated consumer of the information here and everywhere else and his D had, in fact, applied to schools a cut or so below those that disappointed her. Preparing yourself for failure is different than watching your kid curl up and cry. The same passion that led the OP’s D to compile such a list of achievements is also going to result in genuine grief from the D and thus genuine pain from any parent watching their D or S in that position. This group’s substantial collective intellect is at times outweighed by its heartlessness. </p>

<p>As to the entitlement, many of the posters appear to miss the point that these kids do not feel entitled. They instead feel obligated to live up to the high expectations placed upon them and, more importantly, to fulfill their natural talents. They like what they do, they like hard work, and they are good at achieving. That they are driven does not mean that they are mailing it in. That their circumstances are comfortable justifies scorn no more than in previous times, scorn was reserved for those “not of our class, deah.” It is in their DNA to achieve. Many have friends or sisters or brothers who were the lazy ones, but the students who are the topic of this thread have instead been pushing themselves their whole lives. For that, they are now the recipients of snide comments on this thread that they were “born on third base.” They are spoken of as automatons, mailing it in and numbly compiling allegedly college-worthy lists. That devalues their hard work and achievements. It is the worst kind of reverse snobbism – it’s like when Keith Richards and rock critics sucking up to him would say that only the working class can really make up rock bands. </p>

<p>As for the lotto, and CalMom’s repeated theme that not everything works out, that this is like job applications, that really, what’s the big fuss? – That is simply wrong. There is, thank the good Lord, NOTHING in these kids’ lives that is going to be as wildly up in the air as the present college admissions sweepstakes. Winning a promotion, getting a fellowship, making partner – you really think that those endeavors have reduced themselves to a lottery? No way. Are they difficult? Sure. Will the overall odds be low? Yes again. But they will not be so wildly low, merit will not be so severely devalued to the point of insignificance, and they will not lose out just because they are not from Nebraska. Merit and the ability to actually do the work will matter significantly more. The truly naïve are the ones who miss THAT. The disingenuous ones get it but rebut it by justifying it in social imperatives. </p>

<p>As to the worth of “other” colleges beyond and below the elite – I suggest this is a work in progress but hope those posters are correct. My son went to an elite LAC and I saw it lift his game considerably. He skated through high school and would likely have done the same at a less-demanding college. The students there instead made him harder working and awoke a spark in him. I took out of that experience that the quality of students is at least as important as the quality of the professors. For the top schools, it is in some ways an elaborate game with a continuous loop that they cannot lose: they admit top students who do great things upon graduation (and would have from anywhere) and whose glory thus reflects back on the institution, perhaps with very little instruction needed. It is my fervent hope for those now getting into the schools that until Lotto-land had not been graced with students of their GPA/SATs/interest that they will form laboratories that will lift all of THEIR games. If not, then please, let’s not dismiss so easily OP’s angst. It makes a difference, from future resumes to present education, and you know it. </p>

<p>Finally, the race card. Please don’t play it. There are perfectly valid social reasons, starting of course with the stain on our history left by slavery, for affirmative action to remain in place 50 years after passage of the Civil Rights Act. There are equally valid reasons to suggest, as a recent poster has done, that it is every bit as racist to prefer an African-American student today as there was to exclude her in 1953. We can argue that colleges have the private right to compose their students from as diverse a set of backgrounds as possible so as to make the educational environment truly ennobling, or we can argue that that is as silly as making the swim team as diverse as possible rather than made up of the fastest swimmers. That difficult debate will continue to play out, but until it is resolved, it is ludicrous to pretend that the preferences noted by OP are not there. It is insulting to label those who question them racist. And it is naïve to think that in a society that continues to march forward based on preferences, resentments will not be fostered in tomorrow’s leaders. All choices come with negatives. </p>

<p>@Movemebrightly, I sincerely doubt it is in any way “harder” for highly qualified white female applicants to gain admittance to MIT. When that is part of the complaint, it’s hard to take the OP seriously. I’m sure there are schools where her demographic would be over-represented in the applicant pool and therefore probably at some disadvantage in admissions, but MIT is not one of them. “Harder” than what? Getting into MIT as an Asian male? </p>

<p>Sue: love the lyrics.</p>

<p>Awc: many of us are not just parents, we were also students that may well have been rejected from top schools. I was an Ivy reject (as were many of my classmates). One of the common freshman year jokes/questions were what Ivy did you want to go to? Many of us got “likely letters” but were still rejected. Some of us needed financial aid and Ivys were not need blind. Some could have been full pay. We all had great college experiences and good lives. I still remember that one of the top students in our high school was rejected from Yale and was very upset - he went on to be a very successful attorney. So our perspective is different because we have been there and done that. Any adult that wastes their life being bitter that they had to go to a top 25 college, rather than a top 10 is setting themselves up for a very difficult life. </p>

<p>Move: nobody here is suggesting students don’t have the right to be sad or grieve or that there is not a difference between a top 10 and an unranked school. Only that a top 25 vs a top 40 or ever top 50 is still going to have a lot of very bright, high achieving kids. But it is also silly not to accept that kids from affluent backgrounds and the majority race in good school districts are not a step ahead to start with. </p>

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<p>I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that the reason posters come off as “heartless” is that there is a suspicion that the grief and anger on the part of many parents has as much to do with loss of status and saving face as it does with fears about their child’s future or concerns about their emotional state. (And remember, this dialogue is in response to a parent’s prompt, not a student’s.) Venting is fine, but this may not be the best place to do that. Maybe there should be a thread just for that.</p>

<p>Of course it’s hard to watch your child cry, but as parents we have to learn to deal with that, too. My 6’4" son literally wailed with grief when he didn’t make the varsity basketball team as a junior in high school. It may sound trivial to those reading this, but it wasn’t to him. He didn’t come out of his room for two days. I was afraid he’d hurt himself. I am quite sure his emotional response was on par with that of just about student unexpectedly rejected by their favorite Ivy. Of course I was beside myself. But I didn’t blame the selection process or suggest that it was because he got passed over because “white men can’t jump.” He didn’t get in because he didn’t get in. I helped him deal with his sadness and disappointment…and I didn’t let him see mine. He got over it. But, yes, I still remember feeling helpless as I listened to him crying in his sleep. As parents, it’s more likely than not that we’ll all face that. It’s part of the job description. </p>

<p>My reaction to a post that introduced the issue as “I’m very sad for my daughter. She is so disappointed that she didn’t get into her dream school. What can I do to help her deal with it?” would be quite different from one with the heading “A parent’s cautionary tale—SWF—Northeast need not apply.”</p>

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<p>MoveMeBrightly, do you really believe this? NO ONE is saying hard-working kids like the OP’s daughter don’t deserve consideration by the perpetually finite list of schools they consider appropriate. But the key word is “finite.” There are only so many spots. And for the umpteenth time, these colleges want to create an interesting mix of students in the student body. It is not in their best interest to admit kids who can’t do the work. And it is not for others to judge their decision-making process. If people really think “merit” is not getting smart kids into these schools year after year–and creating environments like the one your son enjoyed at his college–why do they flood them with more and more applications every year?</p>

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<p>Is that necessarily the case in all areas of employment? People in the working world complain all the time about what they see as corruption and nepotism in hiring, firing, and promotion decisions at work. Sure, such stuff is less of a factor when merit matters more and is relatively easy to measure, but there are many jobs where a large number of people can do the job, so workers need to bring something extra to get hired or promoted.</p>

<p>And yes, the odds for finding a job can be as low or lower as the odd of admission to an elite college, as some people complain about applying to hundreds of jobs and not getting any.</p>

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<p>The same story of students upping their games exists at many other colleges, including open admission community colleges.</p>

<p>A good student should have plenty of choices of colleges to attend if s/he does not fixate on elite colleges. It is not like a good student will necessarily be dispirited to the point of dropping out if s/he has to go to a state flagship or something like that (even though some parents and students posting this time of year make it seem like going to a state flagship instead of an elite college is the worst thing in the world).</p>

<p>In life (and not just college admissions) anger is triggered predominantly by people perceiving they’ve been treated unfairly. Clearly, this anger is present in some strong candidates for top schools who have received disappointing results. I think it is misguided and unhelpful to accuse these students–and their parents–of being “entitled” or “whiners.” Nobody “expects” an admission to these schools. But they perceive an unfairness in the selection process. Whether that perception is justified is clearly debatable, hence the length of this thread. But their anger is a normal human reaction and I wouldn’t judge them harshly for it. As long as acceptances are based to a great degree on subjective criteria (and of course they always will be) there will be anger. As parents, we teach resilience and moving on. As citizens we have a lot to think about in terms of where we draw the line between seeing people as individuals and categorizing them as members of a particular group. My own opinion is that we are erring too far on the side of grouping kids. A vigorous debate on this is healthy.</p>

<p>“Nobody ‘expects’ an admission to these schools.” Let me rephrase: "No sensible person ‘expects’ an admission to these schools!!</p>

<p>And in some professions, especially these days, it is who you know, not who you are that can make the difference. Deciding to go work at company A vs Company B when one goes bankrupt and the other thrives, can be the luck of the draw. Choosing a profession that dries up (all those 50-something newspaper and magazine journalists), is also an unlucky choice. Personality, luck, and drive as well as talent, play a huge part in success in the work place. The best and brightest do not always make it to the top. </p>

<p>@EllieMom, I think it’s completely fair and even helpful for people to be honest and clear about admissions results. It’s fantasy to think that an unhooked kid from an overrepresented demographic is entering an even playing field. It’s * helpful * for those of us entering the fray to understand this in very concrete terms. The selection process * is * biased and it * is * the reason some kids don’t get in. I agree with the parts of MoveMeBrightly’s very well-written post that call out the lotto quality of the admissions process. </p>

<p>Where I part ways with @movemebrightly is the notion that only these top end schools will attract and enroll a significant number of intellectual peers and without that experience the really smart student will languish. If there’s any reason I post on these threads it’s to rail at that stubborn myth. The myth which, in my opinion, fuels this crazy process and which fuels the disappointment and anguish far more than entitlement or the drive toward status. Parents are worried about their children. They are worried that they won’t progress in the wrong environment. They are worried that their children won’t get jobs. </p>

<p>That myth drives me batty. ** There are brilliant people at every school I’ve visited with my three daughters. ** I’ll grant you we didn’t pick the schools randomly so we knew going in that this would probably be the case but even so, I’ve met brilliant, brilliant kids at community colleges, non-flagship state Us, and tiny no name LACs that pretty much let anyone in. I had to laugh when we visited a very high acceptance rate safety school with one of my older two. She’d signed up for an interview thinking this would be a low stress introduction to interviewing. As we sat in the waiting room, we heard another kid coming out of his interview and discussing the neuroscience major at the school in sophisticated detail and with great earnestness, describing the research he’d been doing throughout his four years in high school. Not only are there peers to be found at every school but there are professors who are eager to mentor smart, motivated students. They become your friends, they help you to plan your future, they even groom you for post-grad opportunities.</p>

<p>You don’t have to avoid the elite schools but honestly, there’s a world out there beyond them that offers wonderful experiences, employment, and intellectual stimulation! </p>