<p>Fraternities and Sororities have advisory boards and Grand Council Officers that monitor them which many non greek student organizations do not. There are fewer cases of greeks misbehaving than nongreeks, it just easier to make a news story out of them.</p>
<p>OP–sweet, if somewhat saccharine story, but lots of college students who aren’t part of the Greek system are surrounded by a warm, supportive group of friends who rally in times of crisis. Of course, sororities and fraternities have some good points but also lots of bad ones. They are inherently exclusive and in my opinion detract from the atmosphere of a campus much more than they add to it. At very large universities where many students could be lost without finding their “tribe” or niche, they may serve an important function for some. One of my sons went to a huge fraternity/sorority school. He hated it and told me to make sure his brother didn’t make the same mistake. His brother didn’t–and loved his experience at a far more open and inclusive college.</p>
<p>No one has ever suggested there was anything wrong with having good friends and a strong community, especially during a hard time in one’s life. And I don’t think anyone ever suggested that Greeks – even fraternity boys – were an embodiment of pure evil, incapable of doing anything good, or warm, or loving.</p>
<p>College students are generally good, and warm, and loving people, quick to make friends, and fiercely loyal. So it isn’t exactly news when a group of college kids do something good, warm, and loving, and are strong friends to one of their friends. They do THAT outside of the Greek system, too. But it would be ridiculous to suggest that fraternities and sororities don’t do a good job of fostering those kinds of relationships among their members, because clearly they do.</p>
<p>I don’t have much use for them, but I can’t deny that, and I wouldn’t even try.</p>
<p>Now, does that make up for all the bad stuff? Because there is a bunch of bad stuff with it. Not necessarily every chapter on every campus, and not evenly distributed, but still lots to complain about. Propagating an unhealthy alcohol culture – and, yeah, non-Greeks get wasted, too, but everything I know tells me that where there is a strong Greek system there are more kids drinking too much, Greeks and indies. Reinforcing sexism, homophobia, and hierarchy. Segregating affluent from non-affluent kids. Occasional unforgivable cruelty, to “brothers” or “sisters”, to pledges, to non-members.</p>
<p>I don’t know. It’s a complicated social calculation. I’m glad I never had to make it. My wife and I went to a college with no fraternities, and I was happy about that. My siblings went to colleges with strong fraternities, and one suffered a little for it, and the other was a member in good standing and loved it, although I can’t say I loved what it did for her. (But whether the fault was in her sorority or in herself, who knows?) My kids went somewhere with very weak fraternities, and were never even tempted to join but didn’t resent them at all, and liked individual members.</p>
<p>The powerful Marcel Ophuls documentary, Memory of Justice, begins with the filmmaker filming his own birthday party on a sunny spring day at Princeton. It’s idyllic, as you might imagine, with kids and students drifting back and forth. He starts to interview his stunningly beautiful, blonde wife . . . and she’s talking about what a great time she had in the Hitler Youth. The camping trips, the songs, the community-service projects, the camaraderie. It was just wonderful, a wonderful time in her life, as a German teen in the late 30s, in the Hitler Youth.</p>
<p>Now, I do NOT equate fraternities and sororities with the Hitler Youth. But my point is that the article posted by the OP could perfectly well have been written about the Hitler Youth by a member in 1938, and it wouldn’t make me feel any better about the Hitler Youth. That’s because I have the context to understand that no matter how wholesome and fun and supportive it was to the kids on the inside, the Hitler Youth was very much part of an evil system, even if its individual members were far from evil, taken as individuals or even small groups. If sororities were that evil, I would be screaming to ban them, even acknowledging that beautiful, well-coiffed blonde girls could find true friendship and support there.</p>
<p>If we are going to judge fraternities and sororities – and, by the way, I don’t know that anyone cares whether we bother with that or not – it has to be on the whole picture, the good and the bad. And we have to ask whether the good redeems the bad, but we also have to ask whether it doesn’t. And we have to ask what the alternative is, whether these institutions make much of a difference either way at all. I tend to think they do . . . in both directions. But far less than their supporters or their critics claim.</p>
<p>Here are a couple of stories of good by fraternities that I remembered from this year alone.
[Wabash</a> Student’s Life Saved by Brothers](<a href=“Wabash Student's Life Saved by Brothers | Wabash College”>Wabash Student's Life Saved by Brothers | Wabash College)</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“YouA moves from Youtube – The Crimson White”>YouA moves from Youtube – The Crimson White]Greeks</a> organize relief efforts | The Crimson White<a href=“The%20Alabama%20Greeks%20prepared%20and%20delivered%201/3%20of%20the%20meals%20donated%20during%20the%20tragedy”>/url</a></p>
<p>But it’s hard to judge in toto, JHS, any more than you would lump all college students together and make sweeping generalization. I agree fraternity and sorority systems can be bad, detrimental, and there are certain heavily Greek campuses I wouldn’t want my kids going to. OTOH, there are places where it’s just another structured way to socialize.</p>
<p>Much to our shock, one of our sons asked to join a fraternity several months into his freshman year. We were stunned since he had never indicated an interest in this and he said he didn’t have an interest until he was approached and asked to join. He does not drink and says that there are a couple of other brothers in his pledge class who also do not drink. He said that he has never been harassed in the least bit about this and there has never been any hazing of any sort.</p>
<p>His frat does charitable good works and raised over $10,000 this past spring to support two charities. They generally have the highest GPA average of any frat on campus. They may be unusual, but they do exist.</p>
<p>ETA-Pizzagirl, I think it’s possible that my S may be at the same university your DH attended in the Midwest. :)</p>
<p>xiggi- the reason that the national pulls a charter for “only” 5 years is because that allows all those involved (and those that know the local reputation of the chapter) to leave the campus. When that group recolonizes on campus it will have much stricter supervision by the national organization and will attract a different kind of pledge class. It will more than likely have rules re: drinking in the house (more and more organizations are requiring dry houses) if only for insurance reasons. The house most likely will not even come back without significant alumni support and participation. </p>
<p>One thing that truly has changed in the last ten years is the very direct involvement and swift actions of the national offices of the Greek organizations. Hazing may still happen, but when it does, it is handled swiftly and forcefully. Those articles of bad behavior that were sited resulted in the organizations facing at the least probation and at the most extreme, loss of charter. The stories of band members dying at HBCs and basketball players getting sodomized during initiation are often handled by school or local authorities that say “boys will be boys”, and the military hazing is almost never exposed to the general public.</p>
<p>Fraternity brothers spotted my son’s depression 5 months ago and got him to seek help. I can’t bear to think where he’d be without that intervention.</p>
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<p>That is wishful thinking. Those chapters should be permanently closed. The five years suspension is a spineless slap on the hand.</p>
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EXACTLY. Why do so many people think hazing is germane only to Greek organizations? Did you see “The Social Network” and how Harvard’s secret societies were portrayed? “American Pie” gave us a pretty good laugh at what can happen at band camp. My point is inappropriate behavior can and does occur in other college organizations. Does it in happen in ALL of them? Absolutely not…that includes Greek fraternities/sororities; there are some that haze, but many – MOST – do not.</p>
<p>It is hardly wishful thinking when it has been proven on countless campuses that the chapter character changes upon recolonization. And if you don’t believe that dry houses are gaining in popularity, check out the national websites. It doesn’t mean the the fraternity members can’t drink, it means that they can not drink in the house, or throw alcoholic parties. Those kids of rules do attract a different kind of brother.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2001/02/14/nationals-advocate-dry-fraternities/[/url]”>http://www.cavalierdaily.com/2001/02/14/nationals-advocate-dry-fraternities/</a></p>
<p>This is one of those topics where it is easy to generalize and/or demonize ALL Greek activity due to the poor behavior of a few. Hazing can also take place with college sports teams…do those same people propose we do away with all college sports??? I think it makes more sense for a son/daughter going off to college to know the kinds of people they enjoy being around and bond with those having things in common and have enough self-esteem to walk away from those things they know are wrong. The reputation of the different fraternities and sorrorities will vary even at any given college, one bad one doesn’t make all of them bad.</p>
<p>Remember all the hazing that happened in connection with the University of Wisconsin Band?</p>
<p>Bad behavior isn’t the domain of just the miscreants who choose a greek organization…the really sweet band geeks behave no differently.</p>
<p>{quote]This is one of those topics where it is easy to generalize and/or demonize ALL Greek activity due to the poor behavior of a few.
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<p>No generalization here. </p>
<p>Is asking for the permanent ban of a fraternity that contributed to the death of one of its pledges a … general indictment? How extreme of a crime do you need to justify a permanent closing of THAT chapter.</p>
<p>And if it truly were the work of a few, this should hardly matter to the entire Greek realm. If the Greeks were truly interested in making systemic changes, they should be the first to show the right path to the spineless college officials and impose a permanent ban … themselves to the so-called few who ruin their good reputation.</p>
<p>Those who have not experienced Greek life are in a very poor position to judge its merits. I often use the example of a person who has a negative view of a restaurant, and talks about how bad the food is, even though they never personally ate there. </p>
<p>To have an honest opinion of the Greek system, you must have experienced it. There are many great and wonderful people in these organizations; and they provide a community, leadership experience, and a moral sounding board that is often lacking on our college campuses today.</p>
<p>If Greek life is not for you or your family members then that is OK. There are plenty of great activities that one can participate in at college. There is however no reason to demonize organizations that provide such a rich and fulfilling experience for those of us who want it.</p>
<p>This thread belongs in <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1182662-list-perpetual-cc-threads.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1182662-list-perpetual-cc-threads.html</a>
yada, yada…</p>
<p>My father was dead set against me joining a fraternity. My mom just said to use my own good judgement. I took my mom’s advive and joined a fraternity. My father came around when I showed him it was cheaper than living in the dorm and provided me a way to make some spending money. We did our own cooking and the cooks were paid. </p>
<p>I was glad I took my mom’s approach as joining a fraternity was the best thing I did in school. I made lifelong friends. Since we (as a group) didn’t rely on a lot of outside help, I learned a lot more about responsibility and making sure things got done (I was steward, cook supervisor, house VP in addition to being one of the cooks). And I had fun. I tried new sports. And I got thru school. We helped each other out and were there for each other. Was it all good? No, but what is? It had a few down moments.</p>
<p>Ironic that some of my friends from the dorms would come over to my fraternity to study. They liked the study group we had put together and found the fraternity house much quieter than the dorms.</p>
<p>In the years since I graduated, I have visited the house several times. I am always welcomed there. Each time I get to meet another bunch of great guys who are carrying on the traditions and the name I was a part of. </p>
<p>Other people may have totally different experiences. What you have to learn is to be able to judge for yourself what is good and what isn’t. You need to be able to do that in school, at work and in the rest of your personal life. If you don’t think a particular organization is right for you, DON’T join. Don’t lump all fraternities, sororities and even the dorms into one. Going in with a closed mind is the best way to miss the obvious opportunities.</p>
<p>PS: Pulling a chapter’s charter for 5 years is a death blow to that chapter. Starting again in 5 years IS totally starting over. All involved with the chapter are gone from school in that time. You generally have to start as a colony and prove that you (as a group) belong in the fraternity.</p>
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<p>And to be a bench judge, you should have some experience as a criminal? To evaluate a book, you should have written one? Can someone have an opinion about a restaurant that was just closed because of giving salmonella to a few patrons? </p>
<p>You seem to confuse people judging the nefarious actions of some fraternities with debating the positive experience in being in one. This is not about insider’s knowledge; none is needed to measure crimes.</p>
<p>Try to convince the friends or the family of the poor souls who have been killed (and that is the right word) by the ignorance and stupidity of teenagers who were thrusted in a position of leadership.</p>
<p>For some reason I thought this was about the financial crisis in Greece.</p>
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<p>That’s more apt than you know.</p>
<p>You can be sure that the Greek people are not happy about the misappropriation of Hellenic culture by beer-guzzling Neanderthals.</p>