<p>I teach in a technical subject at a Tier 3 (according to USAWR) university with a 90% acceptance rate. I can assure you that our courses are “easier” than any top 50 or top 100 college because of the level of our students. We also flunk a much higher percentage of the students, at least in the intro courses (so “easier” does not mean easy).</p>
<p>I think at least at the intro level much of the material is the same, but the grading and expectations may be higher at the more selective school. Sticking with your example of Stanford, virtually every kid there is an A student who excelled at advanced classes. Surely the expectations for them would be higher than for at a small state school (not even using the flagship for this comparison) with mostly B/C students who took standard college prep courses. </p>
<p>I think as you move up to higher level courses, you may see more diversity. The selective privates may have smaller class sizes and a wider variety of classes, and more in-depth classes, than the small state schools. With a big flagship univ they may be able to offer a wide variety of very specific classes, but the small state schools are probably more limited. </p>
<p>But you never know, there are unique programs and hidden opportunities at a lot of schools.</p>
<p>I agree with most of what has been posted above. My daughter just completed her freshman year at Harvard. The strength of her classmates that she competed with, and more importantly studied with, made a real difference in the educational experience. Had she gone to our state flagship (UNC-CH) she would have placed out of her first 1.5 years of classes due to her AP exams and yet her introductory classes at Harvard covered so much material that was not in her APs that there is no question that the expectations are different at the two schools. A HS friend of hers is also studying physics at a state school in CA and they shared copies of their homework assignments with each other. There was no comparison. And lastly, there are many different levels of “introductory” classes available. She was qualified to take any of four different introductory math classes at Harvard and each had differing foci (the most difficult one expects the students to spend 60 hours/week on just that one class).</p>
<p>^cltdad,</p>
<p>Did I read that correctly, there is a introductory math course at Harvard that expects 60 hours a week studying for one class? When would the student have time to study for their other courses?</p>
<p>There’s two points that haven’t been covered yet:</p>
<p>1) The instructor makes a huge difference. Sometimes big name schools will have a big name professor – who may be a great researcher but a lousy teacher. Or a freshman course may be taught by TA’s – some of whom may have English as a second language. So there are times when a great prof at a smaller place may be a better course than Big Name U. Many colleges have discussion boards where students dish on the different classes. That’s the place to get the scoop on any school/course. </p>
<p>2) Freshman Biology can be a premed weed out class. It’s important to understand who is taking the class and why. There can be a BIG difference between Bio 101 at Humboldt (where many students are headed to be marine biologists or environmental researchers) and Tulane (where many bio students are pre med). At my alma mater, Texas A&M, there was a big difference between the “Crank them through” huge biology department and the warm and fuzzy and small Fish and Wildlife department . </p>
<p>Ask LOTS more questions. You are off to a good start!</p>
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<p>That’s the infamous Math 55. It’s supposed to cover the undergraduate math curriculum in two semesters. From Harvard’s department website:</p>
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<p>I was thinking the same thing, BobbyCT. That’s about 8 hours a day on that class, plus work for 3-4 other classes, sleeping, eating, attending other classes. I doubt it. Even med, law students etc don’t spend 8 hours a day on one class on a regular basis.</p>
<p>Yes, b@r!um identified the right course. My daughter told me that one classmate took it, Physics 16, and Computer Science 50 at the same time. These are each known to have very high work loads. She said it sounds crazy to her and I would have to agree.</p>
<p>The answer to your question, which is not a naive one, is, “Yes, it can vary widely from college to college.” However, at a number of colleges, you can actually see the variations because they may offer more than one biology course, calculus course, statistics course, etc. I live in an area that has a number of 4 year colleges, and you can take biology courses that are intended for natural science and/or health profession bound kids, and those who are not. Some courses like the Statistics courses are actually labeled, “Statistics for Social Sciences”, “Statistics for Math, Engineering, Science”. So within a college, itself, there can be that variation. </p>
<p>I went to a top 25 research focused university that has a lot of graduate students. The school is very highly rated in a number of disciplines for its graduate programs. I knew a number of grad students who were accepted from every school imaginable. Some went to community college and then to a USNWR 4th tier school to get their degrees. Many of them did have to take courses that someone graduating with a major from my university would not have to take upon entering such a grad program. </p>
<p>It does not always pay to take the most difficult level courses . If you are pre med, for instance, it’s a heck of a lot better to get those A’s and B’s from any college that has, say Organic Chemistry, rather than taking from a school that is notorious for giving tough grades in it because of the high standards. At my college, Organic Chem is the Pre med Killer. The course and its lab are geared for those going into research in chemistry. So the info taught in the course can get a lot more technical than what you need to ace those MCATs, get into Pharmacy School, go into nursing. Because when it comes right down to it, that “C” from Big Rep U does not an “A” or even a “B” from State U or Not Well Known U, make. If you are a top level chemistry whiz wanting to get into leading edge chem or bio research, it could benefit you to go to Big Rep U that has its rep for teaching that subject. But be aware that those intro courses are likely to be taught by lectures by Big Rep profs with the graduate students doing the recitations, grading the exams, answering questions. At some schools without that big rep, students taking such a course are given a lot more attention.</p>
<p>I see this in engineering schools all the time. Yes, the basic material needed to become an engineer is taught at all schools with an accredited engineering progra. But going to RPI or any school that is considered an institute of technology, never mind that it is not MIT or CIT, you are like to get a more rigorous approach to the subject. If you are not the top of the top in the subject, you are far more likely to get that engineering degree at a liberal arts school or other type of school that has a good mixture of majors as well as an engineering department than going to that IT. For instance, Manhattan College has been graduating engineers at nice clip and they are getting those engineering jobs side by side with the MIT guys. I know a bunch of them. They readily admit that they would have been killed going into the MIT or Fu School at Columbia for engineering where so many of the students were already in advanced math, foreign students, very focused on math and engineering, older students, etc. A school like Manhattan College, Bucknell, with smaller engineering departments made success far more likely for some students. </p>
<p>With students that have had more advanced courses in high school, research experience that already puts them ahead of most college students and high test scores, the curriculums of such school often have steeper grading curves and more technical coverage of a subject above and beyond what most kids want in a terminal degree. </p>
<p>Be aware, however, that it is not just the selectivity and big rep of a school that indicates the difficulty level of the courses. It is the college itself that determines that difficulty. It is often said that the most difficult part of getting a HPY degree is getting accepted there, and there is truth to that. It is also said that Cornell and Penn are the Ivies for which it is the easiest to enter, but the most difficult to get that degree. And the stats support that. </p>
<p>It also depends on the department at the school and the professors, and this can vary over time too. I know that NYU a few years ago went after top Economic professors, and was focused in upgrading that department. When John Barth taught the Writing Seminars dept at Johns Hopkins, he gave it a patina beyond what it would have otherwise had. UChicago has a reputation for being an absolute top drawer school in intensity of academics; many say surpassing the undergraduate educations in many departments that one gets at HPY. Major state universities offer top students opportunities without ceilings in research when they have graduate departments in a subject. I know that SUNY Buffalo where my son attended, though not considered a top flight school on any ranking list, could match in difficulty level and advanced courses nearly any university because of the large and many graduate schools that it has. Many an Ivy leaguer ends up there for the PHD programs and research, and does so gladly. Also the medical school is there. So students can get those opportunities if they are so prepared and motivated to do so. Maybe not so at some LACs or other schools that have no graduate departments and the most advanced courses are just not so advanced. </p>
<p>I can go on forever with examples of this. Most kids at age 18 are not so determined and directed in a specific discipline. Even those who are, may be so directed because their mindset is such that they don’t want to change direction. So, to go to a school that is narrow in focus, is not a wise move unless a tremendous amount of motivation, interest, ability and experience is shown in a subject. Kids tend to change their majors a lot, and many a kid has gone to a school just because it is Big Rep U in a discipline that gets dropped by that kid after the first semester, year or two at that school.</p>
<p>for ALL the great replies!!</p>
<p>So many variables. Not all public schools are created equally, even the top/flagship schools of different states. Let’s assume the student able to attend Stanford/Harvard/et al will be in their flagship school’s Honors program/classes. There can be an equivalent course when taught at that level. Using the same textbook is not an indicator of similar caliber- as others pointed out, the textbook can merely be a jumping off point for the information offered/problems to solve.</p>
<p>Consider schools in the top 10 or 20 or so- does the school offer only one biology or chemistry course at the introductory level, or does it offer several? Waiting to take the Biocore sequence after the prerequisite organic chemistry at UW-Madison may give a better course than freshman level biology at the most elite school, for example. Consider where the school’s grad program sits in the rankings for a given field. Some schools are ranked very highly overall for their undergrad education but if your child is most interested in field x it may not even be offered, or a public research school may offer more. Upper level math courses may be better at a top 15 grad ranked public U than an overall higher ranked elite private U. Research opportunities for undergrads in a science field at a school may be a consideration. </p>
<p>Public flagship schools try to accomodate their best students with honors offerings- variable from school to school and within different departments. Peer group does make a difference- discussing things at a different level regardless of the book used. In general I would go for the best school that is affordable. The cost/benefit ratio may not be there for the expensive elite school compared to the cheaper public U.</p>
<p>Consider your child’s goals. If the goal is only a bachelor’s degree it may not be worth the extra cost- will that engineering BS from a good public U get them the same job? Also, for professional post bachelor’s degrees such as the MD degree, many public schools will suffice and a student can get intellectual satisfaction as well at a much lower cost.</p>
<p>The most important consideration for academic success in life is to look for the best fit college, not the most prestigious. Maybe your child is an A student with high test scores- but so are far more students than the elite schools can accomodate. Other schools take the overflow that Stanford, Harvard, MIT and other schools of their caliber don’t have room for. Maybe your child likes school x better than Stanford. If so s/he is more likely to be motivated to study harder and succeed in learning more.</p>
<p>There is art as well as science involved in choosing a school. Not all Stanford students are better than all flagship U students. However, the probability of being in classes with the top caliber students more of the time is much higher at the most elite schools. Consider the campus culture in addition to the academics.</p>
<p>I go to a small tier 1 LAC and took an introductory biology course. There was only one course and it was a weed-out course. The first semester there were 170ish students but by the second semester it was down to 130ish students. I talked to a friend who attends Yale about her intro bio course and we compared tests and they were rather similar. On the other hand though I compared tests with a friend who goes to a state school and her biology tests looked actually enjoyable and not too difficult. However, the girl who went to the state school did better in her biology class than my Yale friend and myself. </p>
<p>Sorry for my rambling post, but I just felt like sharing my personal experience.</p>
<p>My son just finished his sophmore year at Harvard and one of his classes was History of Music. At the end of second semester, during their reading period, he went to visit some friends in NYC who were at Julliard. One of the girls had taken essentially the same class as my son and was studying for her exam. At one point she came into the room complaining that she had just finished listening to all the music that they were supposed to know for the final and that it had taken her about 8 hours. My son looked at his list of music and calculated that his list was approximately 150 hours of listening.</p>
<p>What’s expected outside the classroom can be significantly different for every school.</p>
<p>A thought…</p>
<p>IMO, so little of what you learn in college is in the classroom, and I don’t mean that in the hokey “life lessons” way! Yes, it’s important to have a strong <em>base</em> from your coursework, but in your chosen field, there’s a TON to be learned from doing research and internships. I can honestly say the most valuable thing to me education-wise as a psych major was the research I did, the grants and manuscripts I helped write, my theses, etc. Of course, having great classes is wonderful (an endocrinology class I took was by far my favorite in college… it was difficult and a ton of information and critical thinking, but I loved it and learned a <em>lot</em>.) and bad or dull classes, well, suck, but when it comes to your actual field, the classroom is really only a launching pad, IMO. You need a decent launch, of course, but the things you do in other realms have a much greater impact.</p>
<p>YMMV.</p>
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<p>The “music” is the same but the average quality of the “dancers” should be higher at an elite school. But don’t confuse elite with expensive.</p>
<p>Anecdote:
I just finished my first year at Cornell and i compared my physics tests with those of Princeton’s (my best friend goes there) and then compared with a friend at Texas Tech. I will say that the princeton and cornell physics tests were virtually the same in terms of difficulty and Texas Tech didn’t really come close.</p>
<p>Hi- did you use Biology as the example because your child wants to major in Biology? How good of a hs student is she?</p>
<p>So some things to consider - especially in the sciences: will she be going to graduate school? Where she gets her undergraduate degree can impact where she gets into graduate school. What does she intend to do with her degree? I suspect that all bio courses are not equal and I agree with all who say that it is often the students to the left and right of you that most impact your college experience. It will be easier to get into graduate school from a more prestigious school (in the particular area of study.) But check out the book 40 Colleges that Change Lives. Not necessarily for the colleges that are listed, but for the kind of stuff that Loren Pope looks at for each of the colleges. I also really liked the post that discussed whether you are taking the course from the TA or the professor.</p>
<p>S2’s IB HL Bio class used Campbell’s. His IB HL Euro class used Palmer’s A History of the Modern World. Both are used in college courses at many fine schools. </p>
<p>S1 is a second-year math major at UChicago and has found that the coursework is comparable to graduate courses his friends have taken elsewhere. Last year was IBL Analysis (three quarters, inquiry-based, covers much the same material as Honors Analysis). This year S1 has been taking Honors Abstract Algebra – another three course sequence, on steroids. Also took Complex Analysis, Point-Set Topography (both of which are pre-requisites to a number of upper-div courses) and Honors Combinatorics (this one’s open to UG and grad students). </p>
<p>Someone in my office who graduated recently as a math major at our flagship had to take one analysis course and one semester of abstract algebra. Never took point-set or a number of other courses that are part of the standard menu at Chicago. </p>
<p>The really talented students at our flagship enter as second semester sophs or juniors, having AP’d or tested out of a significant part of the UG courses and dig into graduate work freshman or soph year. Several of the flagships S1 investigated (including ours) offer multiple levels of intro sequences (bio, physics, math, chem) so that everyone’s needs are covered. There are many paths to reach one’s goal, and finding out what different schools do in this regard is an important part of evaluating fit for a particular student. (IMHO) I also believe that the ability to offer this kind of flexibility in terms of placement levels is a strength of flagships – there is enough of a critical mass to differentiate between physics for engineers vs. physics for physics majors vs. physics for poets – or Bio for pre-meds vs. Bio majors vs. Enviro Science majors vs. those fulfilling general distribution requirements.</p>
<p>S1’s courses sound very cool, CountingDown. A well-taught inquiry based course can be phenomenal! I had a prof for analysis (a long time ago) who remarked that at one point, mathematicians started to notice that an unexpectedly large fraction of the really good topologists had Texas accents–traceable to the incredibly good topology course taught by R. L. Moore.</p>
<p>I once had my stat mech class approximate the number of different course schedules that were available to our undergrads. The number was somewhere in the quadrillions --admittedly, some of the schedules would make no sense–but the point is that there is not exactly a course “level” at a public research university. There are multiple levels of introductory courses in the same topic, and there are options (as noted by CountingDown) to take grad courses as an undergrad. These grad courses may be equivalent to undergrad courses at Chicago or elsewhere, but it is generally possible to gain an equivalent background at the public university. On the other hand, students would not be <em>required</em> to gain an equivalent background. Yet again, it’s probably possible to satisfy the graduation requirements at Harvard while constructing a course schedule that short-cuts challenges.</p>
<p>Math 55 at Harvard is really unusual. There may be courses at a few other universities that are somewhat similar. Most public flagships will not offer an equivalent experience for incoming freshmen. But I don’t think that opportunity is “make or break.”</p>
<p>I have degrees from two public universities, one very highly ranked and one middle of the pack. One is an undergraduate degree (better university) and one is a masters (middle of the pack). Both degrees in very similar areas of study. My experience was that the quality of students was markedly better at the better university. This translated into richer classroom discussions, and better quality partners in group projects. It also translated into tougher grading, since the professors at the better university had more quality assignments & tests to grade my work against 
All in all, I got A LOT more out of the undergrad experience at the better university because of the quality of my classmates. Professors were pretty comparable, I thought.</p>