<p>Well, look at it this way: Would you be comfortable having your tax dollars fund a Taliban madarassa? Or a Westborough Baptist Church-affiliated school? Or Scientology High? How do you know that your tax dollars are being used to teach geometry, instead of being used to teach people to hate America, the Great Satan, or because God Hates Fags? I think that’s a big part of some people’s concern about funding religious organizations in general, regardless of what the Constitution does or does not say.</p>
<p>I have to admit I have never really understood the voucher proposal. I think that I am opposed, but my reasons are not being voiced here… so maybe due to my lack of true understanding they are not even valid.
My fear with vouchers was that more children and especially those with involved parents would flee the public school system, thus taking the public system down even further. I also would think there are many areas of the country where private schools are not available and even with vouchers may not be affordable to many. For instance in my area, there are private K-8 schools but not any high schools—I would have had to send mine to boarding school (if that was feasible financially) in order to leave the public system. I guess I feel that if all the dissatisfied, concerned parents leave the public system, how will it ever get better?</p>
<p>Anyway, are my concerns valid?</p>
<p>MKM56, I think that your concerns are potentially valid if ALL that we do is institute vouchers. I think the only way to avoid the traditional public schools in some areas from collapsing is to couple vouchers with the elimination of tenure and the creation of a merit pay system. Then, as public schools feel the jeopardy of people leaving they will have the tools at their disposal to improve the school.</p>
<p>And kluge, now who is being “over the top” with your discussions of madrassa’s, etc.?</p>
<p>Fundingfather,
Yes, the highly motivated teachers that I know totally support ending tenure and some I know refuse to pay dues into NEA</p>
<p>Well, at least I’m on-topic! :)</p>
<p>But seriously, how do you separate out the “good” religions from the “bad” ones once you start doling out the tax dollars? Without getting into an “establishment of religion” situation?</p>
<p>Kluge raises an effective debating point in #21, but it doesn’t hold up when applied to the real world, I think. (BTW, watch the spelling! There’s a legitimate Baptist church in Westborough, MA. Westboro Baptist Church, of KS, is the one with the godhatesfags.com web site).</p>
<p>In fact, I think he answers his own question in #19: “I don’t see why a religiously-affiliated school should be excluded as long as it meets objective educational standards.” The fact is, if we can’t censor a church for its teachings, we shouldn’t be able to prevent people from attending their “Sunday schools.” If we can’t prevent them from attending their “Sunday schools,” how exactly is society hurt if they attend an accredited academic program offered under its auspices?</p>
<p>To address Kluge’s examples directly: Westboro is a “church” of about 100 inbred relatives of the founder, who has been excommunicated from just about every religious group with the authority to do so. I have trouble seeing him coming up with an accredited academic program, but even if he did, I don’t think vouchers are going to open up the floodgates for the Westboro Baptist Church. Anyone in the area knows where to find them, and if they want that association, presumably, they do so already.</p>
<p>Madrassas are essentially Islamic parochial schools. Wahabist madrassas could certainly pose a problem, but if they don’t exist in the US already, it isn’t because of lack of vouchers…the Saudis have all the money they need to fund them, and they’re not turning students away because they don’t have the money to attend. So, assuming we have Wahabist madrassas in the US, vouchers don’t change the status quo…and even if the Saudis were to say “OK, we want vouchers for our students,” they would then open themselves up to public scrutiny of academic standards, which they don’t want, as that would subvert the supposed mission of the Wahabist schools. As I said, anyone can go to these already for free, if they exist here. Also, we are constantly told that most American Muslims aren’t Wahabists…religion of peace, and all that.</p>
<p>In any event, the local school taxing authority isn’t “funding” a particular private school when it issues a voucher. It’s allowing a family to decide which school it wants to “fund” for the purpose of educating its children. It’s one of the few forms of income redistribution I support.</p>
<p>As I wrote earlier, the leading country of the world should be able to overcome the negativism of political and religious zealots. As long as the debate focuses on extreme pitfalls, not much will be accomplished. I do not believe that anyone is proposing a system of free-for-all cafetaria plans for education. </p>
<p>I doubt that unsavory religious fundamentalists would welcome the scrutiny that follows the use of tax dollars. I believe that they would prefer to operate or continue to operate under the cloak of mystery and anonimity of a private school system.</p>
<p>You don’t separate out the good ones from the bad ones. Let parents decide what kind of school they want their kids to go to, period. Yours is the same argument Hillary used when she talked about KKK and Muslim schools. Please. What is so threatening about one or two KKK schools springing up, or a Muslim school here and there? Do you really think huge numbers of parents would enroll their kids in these schools? That is nothing but a strawman argument designed to shut down any discussion at all.</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s a straw man at all. As you tacitly acknowledge, you will get a few KKK, or Taliban, or whatever schools funded by tax dollars if you have a voucher system which funds religious schools. I think some people actually do have a problem with that. Your position that you feel that we should let the parents decide what kind of school they want their kids to go to at government expense is a valid argument, but it’s not a position which is universally agreed with. There’s no point in ignoring the fact that some parents will elect to send their kids to KKK school if it’s funded with a government voucher, and that you have to be OK with that fact to support the proposal. </p>
<p>I see no one is interested in touching Scientology. Me either.</p>
<p>Some people have a problem with the KKK (or other groups) marching and exercising First Amendment rights. Our courts have spoken to that issue. I would add, continuing on an earlier point, that the GI Bill didn’t seem to give rise to funding of KKK (or other radical, unpopular) schools.</p>
<p>No, I think it’s an extremely valid point because primary education is heavily restricted by locality in a way secondary education is not. Outside of an urban environment, choices for students will be few and far between. And while there are many parochial schools who only present the tenets of their faith, there are also many others that neither welcome nor tolerate differences between religions and even sects within their student body.</p>
<p>It is possible, and probable, that the voucher system will leave certain families with an ugly choice: to pick a failing public school that allows parents and their children to participate in any religion they desire, or to pick a more successful parochial school that demands strict adherence by the students and their families to an opposing creed.</p>
<p>Public schools have the legal responsibility of educating 100% of the children in a given district. If they are unable to meet a child’s needs, the district is responsible for funding the private education of said child, often to the tune of $50K a year. NCLB, Special education and ELL costs are mandated federally, with funding required at the local level. </p>
<p>Private schools don’t have to deal with any of this. No mandates. No students with disabilities if they choose not to admit them. No behavior problems (just kick the kids like this out…public schools don’t have this option).</p>
<p>Frankly, the whole system is broken, and I was always a believer in public education.</p>
<p>I don’t know that I think vouchers are the answer at all. I do know that I wouldn’t mind having the $7000 that the district would use to educate my privately educated child (and that I pay in taxes anyway). I didn’t used to feel this way, but being burned by public education changes ones views.</p>
<p>Mandatory zoned public education is the reason why education in America is so *<strong><em>ty now. Schools continue to recieve money regardless of how they teach students. Graduating from HS is a joke, and no wonder so many people don’t make it through college. Vouchers is a good first step. Parents can choose and bad schools will fail and lose accreditation. The final step would be to fully privatize and end mandatory school taxes. A monopoly obviously results in a *</em></strong>ty education, ignorant students, even more ignorant teachers, frustrations, useless PTA meetings, and just a sub par education in general.</p>
<p>If school vouchers ever become law, I am going to start my own school. It will be called Voucher Academy, and I am going to get every bit of government money I can. I know exactly what to do because I lived in a country in which all but the poorest kids go to private school. The private schools there employed marketing people to bamboozle parents into enrolling their kids. My school will take kids that no other school will take, and it will give them good grades. That will guarantee parent loyalty. I will hire teachers that don’t have teaching certificates; that will guarantee teacher loyalty. It will be my little kingdom, I won’t have to report to anybody, and I can’t wait.</p>
<p>SuNa, you sound like you’re describing the current public school monopoly.</p>
<p>Hmm ok you’re not a lib. Sorry for my other post 
I shall delete it.</p>
<p>Can’t tell the players without a program, w1cked. (smiley face)</p>
<p>I have a question for all of you in regard to the religious school issue: is it true that in places other than New York public money doesn’t go to religious schools? Here in New York, the City (through tax dollars, of course) provides busing, nurses, crossing guards, hot lunch, eye and hearing exams, before care and after care (where applicable) as well as some other things. Those services are provided to schools of all faiths, including ultra Orthodox Yeshivas and Islamic schools. I am truly surprised that this doesn’t happen elsewhere.</p>
<p>Is there a program? Do tell.</p>
<p>If I were a parent with a voucher option for my school aged children, but no viable local alternative outside the public school system, I would band together with a group of likeminded parents and set up a small private school, possibly located inside someone’s home. We would hire a newly graduated Education major, just brimming with optimism and idealistic zeal, or a veteran educator with a teaching “gift” who would be happy to ditch public school bureaucracy and politics in order to engage in the purity of the teaching craft. Mine would NOT be a parochial school, but a small private endeavor with very high standards (Verifiable by standardized tests) and the willingness to do whatever necessary to insure the academic success of each and every student. Establishing this school wouldn’t be a cake walk. There would have to be an exhaustively well crafted charter, deliniating all the philosophical and operational details, but ultimately, I think it could be done.</p>