A Student Rebelling

Parents Forum
101

Your D sounds a lot like my D. There were a lot of reasons our D did not step up to study for the ACT, but I think most of her resistance boiled down to avoiding the anxiety she felt because she was afraid she would fall short of her and our expectations. Junior year is also very stressful. The courses are harder, and extra-curricular activities and friends are taking up a lot of time. On top of that, adults (not just parents) start asking things like, “What do you want to study?” and “Where do you want to go to college?” and “What do you want to be when you grow up?” For a kid like mine, who loves to live in the moment, being asked those kinds of probing questions about her future added even more pressure.

Her dad and I did what you did. We got her tutors during the fall and spring of her junior year. She took test prep courses, and we bought her a pile of test prep books. Many times I would get frustrated that she ignored the books or only practiced the day before she was supposed to meet with her tutor. She went through the motions of studying, but her heart was not in it. Her ACT score did creep up, but she took the test several times without seeing a change. Once it even went down, and that really discouraged her. Deep down, she lacked the confidence to put herself out there and really try.

The good news is that the resistance our D had to studying and to discussing future plans did not last forever. As junior year transitioned into summer, it got easier for her to tackle her anxiety head on. By April of her junior year she had earned a score that was good enough to get her into a good state school, and she was one point away from getting a merit scholarship that would help pay for four years of college. We told her that if she had to work for that scholarship money it would be something like 750 hours over the course of four years. We asked her to give herself a mere 30 minutes a day to focus on only the sections of the test that she needed to raise her score. We told her we didn’t want to see her regret not trying. We didn’t force her to take the test again, but she understood that she was more likely to get into her dream schools and get the scholarships she needed to help pay for four years if she was willing to put in a little bit of extra time (roughly 2-3 hours a week, spaced evenly throughout the week).

Our daughter agreed to try, and she stuck to her agreement. I didn’t hound her about it, but she put in about 30 minutes a day to studying the test. She did this for about 4-5 weeks before taking the test. Spacing out the studying helped. She was able to raise her score by the points she needed. It put her into the running for more competitive schools, and she ultimately accepted her dream school. She had a HUGE sense of accomplishment, and none of that would have been possible if she hadn’t tried. Probably the thing I’m most proud of is that she took the initiative to study (without the tutors or us pressuring her). She finally stepped up on her own and gave it her best effort.

Some things I’ve learned from this process is that our daughter does have initiative and is capable of setting goals for her future, but she is not always working on the same timeline as me. I’ve also learned that letting her take more ownership of her choices has been a great preparation for her success in college. Also, doing test prep has given her a taste of what college students do every week: learning to teach themselves course materials and prioritizing their time for not only short-range goals but long-term ones.

The one thing I regret is that she did not retake the test sooner. She waited to retake the ACT test in the fall of her senior year and she did not have her scores back in time for the November 1 deadline (which is usually the deadline most schools give you for early action or early decision). One of the schools she applied to told her that she had to submit all her test scores by November 1 if she was to be considered for EA. She didn’t want to send the lower ACT score, so she waited. She got rejected from that school, and I think it maybe hurt her that she didn’t have that higher score.

102

Phoofie, Thank you for sharing your own situation. I am hoping that she will take the ACT again in September. I had hoped she would have finished the ACT and been able to try the SAT. I think the best I can hope for is for her take it agin in September and improve her score to a 33. We are looking at schools where she would get in with a 31. At this point we lost the money for the April and June tests but that is nothing if she works really hard over the summer, takes the test again and improves her score. September will e her last shot to make the early action deadlines. At this point we will not even try for the SAT subject tests. We can’t afford Georgetown any way.

I am coming to the realization that if this is how motivated she is whereveer she ends up going to school is where she belongs.It would be nice for her to get meirt at some priate schools but I think with a 31 and her current grades she would likely get into one of the SUNY schools which would be afforadable. She can certainly get a great education and be successful. If she makes the top 10% of her graduating class she could even get one of the Stem Scholarships.

103

You could ask her to go to the June test because you paid for it - no prep requested. Just show up and do your best.
And since it’s a pain for her, treat her to a nice meal, or ice cream and a movie, or a round of minigolf, or whatever can be fun as a family outing in her honor. :slight_smile:
(Yes as a teen she’d rather not be seen with you but I’m sure she’ll have fond memories of the day you decided to do z in recognition of her trying hard for College ;))

104

I just wanted to check in and give an update on our current status. DC insisted on taking the June test although there was minimal additional prep. Didn’t sign up for September ACT since the motivation to prepare is just not there. We decided not to push the issue so that DC can concentrate on doing the essay and Common AP but even that is a struggle. Not very motivated to get it done before school starts. So the stats are 96 weighted GPA, 31 ACT, will have 7 APs , mostly 4s . Trying to be patient. I could use some suggestions for schools that would give merit scholarships for DC stats to bring COA at or below 30k. We will not qualify for any aid… DC is interested in going into the medical profession. We are instate for SUNY so will apply to those . We would like to stay max 5 hours from NYC. Any general words of encouragement would also be appreciated.

105

Apply broadly at those SUNY schools. Look at the Colleges That Change Lives list. She might get sufficient merit there to get to your price point. York College in PA would likely be in the right price range with merit.

Her 31 ACT and 96 GPA are nice stats. There is no question she can get accepted to a variety of colleges.

106

Congratulations on being done this phase. Now you have the stats to narrow down your search. Her grades , act and APs will get her into many schools. Maybe even having some credit to save some money.

What in the medical profession is she thinking about? Evidently your Sunys make the most sense.

107

Juniata and Susquehanna may be within budget with merit (with a 31 will receive). She could apply EA.

108

Thanks for the suggestions. I will look at those colleges. She wants to be a doctor but I am not sure she can be in it for the long haul. She may be better off as a PA or NP. What would be your suggestions for reach schools?

109

Reach- Colgate, Vassar. Pitt.
Guaranteed admission BS/MD like at Virginia Commonwealth Univ.
In general, Direct entry BSN programs like at Binghamton, Drexel, Quinnipiac, Duquesne, Temple may be a reach. (Especially ones with rolling admission and fill up).
These may also be financial reaches.

110

She might get merit at Union but probably not enough to get to $30,000. SUNY will likely be more affordable.

111

Medicine in any form will either pick her or not. What I mean by that is the first semester or two you will see what she has on a college level. Unless we’re getting an incorrect picture of her. You have to have the drive and the will to improve and better yourself. Not wanting to do that now is a red flag to me. But some kids just need to get out of the house also. There are weeder classes for sure. Those will help determine her future direction. She has to understand that for medical school she needs to be the best version of herself. Getting her accommodations arranged now doesn’t mean she needs to use them… Just that they are there just in case. Things in college get hard really fast. Having the motivation to follow through is important.

112

The admissions to BS/MD programs are HIGHLY competitive…with acceptance rates in the low single digits. These would ALL be reaches, even for the strongest candidates.

My opinion…a 31 ACT isn’t going to garner admissions into BS/MD programs.

In addition, if your daughter is less than thrilled about preparing for tests…I would suggest you all consider that a career as a doctor will require tests, tests and more tests for which she will need to prepare. Oh, and money, money, money.

@WayOutWestMom could you please comment…and post the link for health related professions?

113

Agree that she will need to be a tippy-top applicant for a BS/MD program. And she will need to be… motivated. Any experience in healthcare? Shadowing? Volunteering in a hospital? Research assistant?

114

For your daughter to get into medical school or a PA program, college GRADES are crucial. PA programs are not where failed premeds go unless they bring up that gpa with additional courses. If she is going to start out in a PA program, she needs to find those programs from the onset , and apply to them to get best chance of acceptance. Or do very well in Premed program and apply to PA and/or MD programs. The advantage to a PA program is that it is less rigorous in its maths and sciences in that the students are not usually the academic caliber of premeds in most colleges. It’s very much a pre professional program. Premed is taking university courses in sciences and math that are required by med schools.

OP’s daughter needs to do the research and be the one to commit to this marathon. She needs to understand where these options are available and what it takes to get that degree in medicine as a MD or PA

As for joint Bachelor/MD programs, they are highly competitive. I agree the current stats give virtually no chance of admittance to them. I’ve known kids accepted to HPY who were rejected from all or most of these dual programs. The application process alone is daunting. I suggest OP research that process. It’s not one to take lightly.

If the student wants to be a doctor, she should start out in supportive college that doesn’t break the bank and get the best grades she can, taking premed courses either there, or plan to take in some program where she can take as a supplement. Grades are the crucial thing. That and MCAT score, and she should test prep to the max for those. Regardless of what direction she goes, med school apps, nursing program, PA, grades are essential Anything else can be made up later, but a low gpa is difficult if not impossible to mitigate. You have to retake courses and bring up entire gpa to address a bad academic record.

115

There are tons of healthcare fields with great employment opportunities that are not MD or PA. There are statisticians who design protocols for clinical trials and the case managers who recruit patients for them; there are policy experts who work at the state and federal levels on funding for different medical interventions; there are communications pros who work for HMO’s developing strategies to make sure that patients understand their benefits-- some patients have PhD;s and others read at a fifth grade level so it’s not so easy communicating with so many diverse populations. There are social workers who work in hospitals helping vulnerable patients who are being discharged arrange the right kind of home support, and there are financial experts who consult with hospitals and clinics on ways to improve their cash flow or cut costs. There are fundraisers who work with foundations and corporations to pay for innovative programs to bring dentists and hygienists on mobile vans to inner city schools where some kids have never seen a dentist, and graphic designers who work at pharmaceutical companies to develop more user friendly guides to make sure that patients are taking their meds correctly and COMPLETELY (huge problem with people who don’t understand the instructions on their Rx).

And of course- OT, PT, Speech, midwife.

I think encouraging your D to think broadly about her interests in healthcare is terrific. She doesn’t need to commit to medicine-- she just needs to understand that her focus and performance from Day 1 in college is going to help determine if MD is the right path, or some other. And then leave it to her.

116

Here is info on VCU,it is a high reach when looking at 2018 successful applicants. I think advice from others to look for targets or matches will work out better.
https://honors.vcu.edu/admissions/guaranteed-admission/gmed-app/

117

I don’t agree with this at all. PA students can very much be the same academic caliber as medical school students. They have just chosen a different path. Getting into PA programs isn’t exactly a walk in the park.

Same with OT, Speech pathology, and PT (PT programs are doctoral level programs). All of these allied health professions are very competitive for admissions to their grad programs. None should be viewed as a safety.

118

I didn’t say anything about the caliber of students seeking PA, though I dare say their test scores are lower than thosevacceptrd to med schools. However, most of the PA programs do not have the exact same science programs that the pre meds tend to take. I’ve been going through what’s available interns of PA programs and many of them are at directional colleges and schools that do not have many pre meds. It’s the same with nursing schools in general. Johns Hopkins nursing school for example, does not have the same rigorous science courses that are offered at the school of arts and sciences for premed. My frirnd’s Daughter, when she wanted to make a bid for medical school, had to transfer from the nursing school to get the prep she needed. She had trouble with that step up. It’s not always the case, with some schools sharing a one size fits all for all health care fields preparatory classes , but there is often a distinct difference. I’ve been looking at schools like Southeastern that have PA programs— they are excellent value for payback in salaries after getting that degree

119

Colgate would be too expensive. As always, you have all given me a lot to think about. She has volunteered in a hospital for over a year and likes it. I think a school like Seton Hall may be a match for her. Would you consider Case Western and American reaches? Both give merit scholarships and appear to have strong pre-med programs/advising.

120

American is a match for stem and Case a reach :slight_smile: