<p>how were yields different for other ivies and top 25 universities? i ended up applying to 9 schools (4EA, 5RD), but i wouldn’t have applied to any of them if i had known for sure that i was going to harvard.
i might also add that harvard’s new financial aid initiative was a huge factor in my applying. i don’t know if i would have with out it. the need-based aid that i got from them was far and away the best i got from any college.</p>
<p>That’s true, but it’s not recommended. The other thing is that it’s best to take SAT-IIs as soon as a class is completed.
The universities’ roadshow is as much for juniors as it is for seniors. If the juniors get inspired by seeing seniors apply to reach schools and get admitted, they will try to emulate them. It’s better for them to take SATIIs at the end of junior year when they’ve completed the courses, and give themselves a chance to retake whichever test they feel the need to retake in the fall term.</p>
<p>I support the elimination of EA or ED. I agree with Weasel that it turns admissions into a strategic game when admissions should solely be about the merit of applicants. elimination of EA makes the process simpler, even if it does cause longer waitlist pains.</p>
<p>We live in the rural Midwest.</p>
<p>From post #58: “…just looking for accurate information. With that in mind, didn’t you say you were a Virginia resident? A quick look at collegeboard stats reveals that 98% of UVA admittees took the SAT, 96% of W&M, and 92% of George Mason. It looks like most students in VA do take the SAT.”</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the conclusion doesn’t follow from the earlier statements. It’s necessary to account for out of state students at the 3 schools listed, any students from VA who aren’t admitted to those 3 schools, and any students from VA who didn’t even apply to those 3 schools. So…the conclusion that most students in VA do take the SAT isn’t a valid conclusion from the collegeboard info. Unless most students in VA attend those 3 schools - but their entering classes aren’t large enough to make that conclusion.</p>
<p>(This statement is now a logic question that’s going to be on the next SAT!!!)</p>
<p>i don’t see what’s wrong w/ EA/ED the way it is.</p>
<p>I live in the metropolitan Twin Cities. I am a subscriber to several of the national email lists for AP teachers (because I am, to some degree, an AP teacher as a homeschooling parent). A Frequently Asked Question on several of the AP teacher email lists is “What is the use of SAT II tests?” Ladies and gentlemen, there certified teachers in strong public school systems around the country that offer AP-level courses who have NO IDEA what the admissions significance of SAT II tests is. One reason I bookmark a link to xiggi’s FAQ on SAT Subject Tests </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/229607-required-sat-subjects-tests-class-2011-a.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/229607-required-sat-subjects-tests-class-2011-a.html</a> </p>
<p>is that this question comes up ALL THE TIME in parent and teacher discussions about college admission. When I attended the Princeton information session in my town in 2005, back when Princeton still had early decision, the meeting was in the autumn, and the students present were in many cases totally surprised to hear that SAT Subject Tests are required for a complete admission file for Princeton. This is not commonplace information in many parts of the country. </p>
<p>Harvard’s line after the book [url=<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Early-Admissions-Game-Joining-Elite/dp/0674010558/]The”>http://www.amazon.com/Early-Admissions-Game-Joining-Elite/dp/0674010558/]The</a> Early Admissions Game<a href=“which%20I%20urge%20all%20of%20you%20to%20read,%20as%20it%20is%20full%20of%20interesting%20information%20about%20the%20college%20admission%20process%20and%20cites%20a%20lot%20of%20very%20interesting%20research%20papers”>/url</a> was that Harvard’s early action program of that time didn’t confer an admission advantage. The explanation of the admission office for the higher base acceptance rate in the early round was that there was some X factor that made early applicants better applicants, even though nothing about the admission office notes about each applicant could identify what that X factor was. (Remember, there have been researchers who have had access to admission office files at various colleges to discover the advantage that applying early provides at most colleges with early admission rounds.) Today Harvard has changed its line and says explicitly–as a Harvard admission officer said on campus this February when I attended Harvard’s admission information session–that Harvard’s former early program advantaged applicants “from certain regions” and Harvard decided to put everyone applying in the same pool to put all applicants on an equal footing. That’s Harvard’s revised internal analysis of what its early round did in recent years. I believe that is an evidence-based statement.</p>
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<p>You are right, but it would be accurate to say that 92-98% of students admitted to 3 of VA’s major public schools took the SAT, right? That info is pretty easy to find.</p>
<p>Anyway, I understand the argument that certain disadvantaged students have fewer resources, college counseling, etc., but I still am not convinced that this alone supports eliminating EA. While my D did graduate from an upper-middle class public h.s., we did not hire a college counselor, nor did she ever consult her own GC (or me!) or attend any info sessions regarding college applications. She is the self-motivated type who figured out the entire process on her own - which tests to take and when, filing deadlines, asked for recs on her own initiative, bought the envelopes and stamps and asked me for the fee check, etc. Granted, she did have a computer at her disposal. I guess my point is, I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect Ivy-bound kids to be able to figure it all out on their own. It can’t be that complicated if my 17-year-old did it, can it? And isn’t this the type of kid the Ivies are looking for? Will a student who cannot navigate the application process be able to adapt on their own to the demands of college life at an Ivy?</p>
<p>The College Board publishes reports for each state listing how many students took the SAT, and lists about a page of the top colleges where students in each state had their SAT scores sent. </p>
<p>[College-Bound</a> Seniors 2007](<a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/cb-seniors-2007]College-Bound”>Higher Education Professionals | College Board) </p>
<p>The ACT organization issues comparable reports. </p>
<p>[ACT</a> National and State Scores for 2007: State Profile Reports](<a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/07/statemenu.html]ACT”>http://www.act.org/news/data/07/statemenu.html)</p>
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<p>It would be very odd if a student in an upper-middle class school did not hear about taking the SAT, and the importance of SAT-IIs, APs, etc… without even attending info sessions. The grapevine, the discussion with GCs about course selection and other matters would ensure that. No such grapevine exists in schools where the majority of the population is not headed for college, drops out, or is interested in community college and at most the stat uni. The few promising students there are truly on their own in a way that no student in an upper middle class school is.</p>
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<p>I must vehemently disagree with this statement. Some friends and I got into a debate at school one day about EA vs. ED. I was the only person in the discussion who insisted that EA was non-binding; everyone else thought that EA was binding. We went home and looked into the matter, and it turns out that I was right. And of the people involved in that discussion, one ended up getting accepted ED to Dartmouth, one accepted RD to HYCC, one applied to Yale, and one applied to Columbia. My school is known as one of the best in the region for college prep, so if it’s so “easy” to find this information, how is it that out of (probably the only) four people in my school to apply to Ivies, only one of us knew of these nuances? My point is, misconceptions about the early admissions process are widespread, so I can definitely believe that many people have fears (albeit unfounded) about the EA process.</p>
<p>Also, regarding the SATII debate, don’t most schools waive the SATII if the student takes the ACT? I know that Harvard and Yale do, since I jumped through their hoops to apply to them.</p>
<p>I too find that misconceptions abound. So it isn’t surprising to me that Harvard, Princeton, and Virginia, after trying to do things another way, changed their policies. They finally looked at the issue of exactly which students they were missing, and now they are making an honest effort to bring on board bright, high-potential students whose environment doesn’t favor shrewd college applications, but whose own inner drive and talent favors accomplishing a lot after college.</p>
<p>Many students from disadvantaged backgrounds do not know that they are “Ivy-bound.” They work hard in high school and demonstrate the ability to perform well at an Ivy, but societal influences oftentimes prevent these students from considering anything other than a state school until very late in the process. Not everyone is raised with the mindset that they should try to gain admission to nation’s elite schools. </p>
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<p>Even if we could expect this of applicants, we don’t need to. By eliminating early action programs, we help solve the problems of class inequality in college admissions without causing any negative side effects for applicants.</p>
<p>I also think it’s reasonable to expect Ivy-bound kids to figure out test requriements on their own. If H doesn’t agree with this and my daughter is about to find herself in classes with kids who are seriously challenged by the rather simplistic concept that it makes sense to take an SAT subject test at the same time you take the associated AP test, well . . . then I may just decide not to write the check for $48k next month and send her to community college where I think most of the kids most certainly are capable of getting on the internet, reading about deadlines, test requirements and all those other “complex” issues for themsevles. </p>
<p>Sheesh. It’s true what they say, the intellectual elite in this country can be foolish indeed.</p>
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<p>I disagree with Bay on quite a few things, but I fully agree with this.</p>
<p>There’s a balance to be struck between parents taking care of their kids and the kids becoming more responsible. It’s true that we shouldn’t rush adulthood. But, kids won’t be kids forever. At some point in their lives, they will have to start taking care of themselves.</p>
<p>For example, in tenth grade, my dad and I registered for an SAT II test on the same day as an extracurricular competition. I knew about it but didn’t tell my dad at the time, and I didn’t tell my coach until a few days before the competition date. My coach was mad but later told me that it was OK because I was “still a kid.” That same year, I took the AP Biology test. Our school registered the whole class to take the exam, but on the test day, one student didn’t show up. When I returned to school after the test finished, I saw that student come out of her car. I asked her why she wasn’t there, and she said she had a doctor’s appointment that she knew about ahead of time. She just didn’t tell the school. It’s OK to be “still a kid” when you’re fifteen, but what about when you’re eighteen?</p>
<p>What goes on “behind the doors” at the undergraduate admissions office might be opaque, but what’s required for admission is transparent. Every college lists what it wants on its website. “Oh, I didn’t know I needed to take SAT Subject Tests” is not a valid excuse for an incomplete application. Why didn’t you know? Did you check their web site?</p>
<p>Yesterday I was in a national-chain bookstore and was looking through the Fiske Guide (to colleges). At the end of each college description, there is a brief summary of required standardized testing - including whether SAT I, ACT, and SAT IIs are required/recommended/optional. Undoubtedly some of the other college guides give roughly the same information.</p>
<p>Of course, a student/parent/counselor should always look to the official website (or printed materials) of a particular college or university to determine exactly which standardized tests are required/recommended/optional. But the “unofficial” college guides do provide a helpful starting point - and the information is clearly laid out. Hopefully rising seniors (and others) who are embarking on the college process have a heads up about seeking out these books in their local libraries and bookstores (at the bookstore I was at, you can even sit and read through the book without actually buying it).</p>
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<p>Shame on those teachers for their ignorance.</p>
<p>I disagree with post 74.</p>
<p>Many very advanced students who attend mediocre schools with kids who either are going to drop out, not attend college or going to 2-year colleges may know they are more advanced than their peers but not how they might compare with students attending better school. The first inkling that they might be competitive is when they take the SAT or ACT and score high. If they wait until the fall of their senior year to take it, they are at a disadvantage in terms of scheduling and readiness to take the SATII.</p>
<p>Students check the websites of colleges they are interested in if they are encouraged to think they have a chance to be admitted. That’s the point of the HPUVA road show which is made possible by not having to deal with EA applications. Once the idea has been planted in their minds, they can then follow through by checking the websites. Keep in mind that not every student has ready access to a computer or unlimited time to surf through the internet. Many work, the public library is not easily accessible by public transport (if there is any where they live) and bookstores well stocked with guides to colleges, SAT prep books may similarly not be easily reached.</p>
<p>A lot of schools, and not just mediocre ones, have teachers who teach honors science classes without regard to SAT-II prep (one the best chemistry teachers in my S’s school took pride in not “teaching to the test.”) </p>
<p>The GCs at mediocre schools have case loads of up to 500 students, and need to cover everything from class scheduling and attendance, discipline, financial aid and college applications. Compare that with schools where the college counselor has a case load of 25, knows not only which college requires what but even knows someone in the admissions office.</p>
<p>Finally, a high degree of intelligence is not necessarily associated with savvy. My Ph.D. advisor knew ten languages, was versed in the history and philosophical traditions of several countries but was totally dependent on his wife for things like airplane reservations, or keeping appointments. </p>
<p>I’m surprised at parents on CC who claim that their child did it all by themselves. The more likely scenario is the disadvantaged student whose parents never attended college or are immigrants and have no clue about what the college application process entails.</p>
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<p>From the Harvard Admission website:</p>
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<p>It does not appear that Harvard waives the 3 SATII requirements for ACT takers.</p>
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<p>You are blaming on a huge percentage of CA public teachers. They are not only ignorant but also hindering. While most private school kids have plenty of time to prepare for SAT-II tests (school ends earlier in May), public school kids have to spend a lot of time on projects before and after the June SAT day (the last 2 weeks of school year). AP teachers tend to ask students to do time consuming projects after the AP exams.</p>