<p>I understand that many communities use no element of merit for entry into magnets…sad but true. Without some selection for entry I don’t see how these schools will produce higher levels of achievement. Ostensibly a student can remain in the school w/o producing good progress…that is not a solution.</p>
<p>hazmat–maybe so, there would probably be some kids like that, but I imagine at a magnet there would be a level of classes for top students/achievers that wouldn’t be available at other schools (think advanced art classes at an arts magnet, advanced science classes at a science magnet) which would bring many (though not all) kids up to a higher level. And if the kid is interested enough to choose a magnet, he/she would probably do better there than she would if she felt stuck at a school that wasn’t offering anything of interest to the student.</p>
<p>hazmat:</p>
<p>The point of the magnet system (here) is not simply to select already high potential, high achieving kids to fill the classrooms. That’s easily enough done, but ultimately exclusive. The point, really, is to create schools that are so outstanding (in terms of academics, visual and performing arts, teaching, etc), that students are willing to get on a bus (or have their parents drive them), or drive themselves, 20+ miles to attend them–creating, in effect, voluntary diversification. </p>
<p>The teachers are outstanding (and the magnet schools and the school system are selective w/regard to the teachers who are hired), and all students have access to what’s offered in them. Obviously, since students do not have to pass a standardized test to enter these magnet schools, range of abilities definitely exists (kind of like life?). But classes are divided into IB; AP; honors; regular. Those are choices, with the help of guidance counselors, parents, and teachers, that students make. And the high quality of teaching does not end in the AP classes.</p>
<p>mstee: My post crossed with your own, but yes. Exactly.</p>
<p>I guess my understanding of magnet schools was the focus of financial expense in one school toward development of special interest in as you say science, art, music, etc. It is to offer more at a higher level and to maximize the financial outlay. I am in no way saying the academic intellectual talent is the sole criteria for entry. Art talent is fine with me.</p>
<p>"I actually have no real problem with school choice as long as it is kept within the realm of public schools. If a parent wants to send their child to a different public school and is willing to transport them then by all means they should be allowed to do so provided that the school has space and the student is willing/able to conform to expectations of behavior.</p>
<p>Vouchers for private education are a different matter. When private schools are willing to accept any and all students who wish to attend regardless of race, religion or gender; when they take children with IEP’s, and 504 plans; when they take children who speak little or no English; when they are subject to the same requirements and standards as public schools with regard to testing; when they are required to guarantee all students them same due process rights they have in public schools before expelling them; by all means vouchers would be an acceptable attempt at reform."</p>
<p>Wharfrat, may I suggest to check the very early posts in this thread that debunked a number of myths -or blatant misinformation. In addition, I would suggest to read the history of the voucher system in Milwaukee as well as the reports of Caroline Hoxby on the issue of cream-skimming: <a href=“http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers.html[/url]”>http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers.html</a></p>
<p>You may find it interesting that not every public school complies to your impressive list of minimum standards. </p>
<p>“by all means vouchers would be an acceptable attempt at reform.”</p>
<p>Reforms are urgently needed, but vouchers are far from being a great solution. I would, by far, prefer the development of an open and competitive system among public schools. Inasmuch as “more money” has has a checkered history, I would highly advocate for more money for teachers’ salaries, as long as it comes with an expanded degree of accountability. I would love to see a fully funded NCLB coupled with drastic restrictions imposed on the activities of the various teachers’ union. A nice step would be to prohibit the election of any union officials who have NOT taught classes in 10 years. I could have used 25 years for Reg Weaver -the president of the NEA- or asked for officials not to use faked credentials a la Randi Weingarten, but I am not picky! :)</p>
<p>PS This is from the bio of the tireless leader of the NEA: Weaver, a middle school science teacher from Harvey, Illinois, is a 30-year classroom veteran and native of Danville, Illinois. In recognition of his achievements, he was named to Danville High School’s Wall of Fame. </p>
<p>Guess when was the last time he graded a paper?</p>
<p>hazmat:</p>
<p>Regarding your post #185, I’m a little confused by what you’re saying. The magnet schools in our area are not selective in any way, with regard to testing. No testing, no portfolio reviews-- required at any of them, in any area–academics or otherwise. And while some schools might have a specific emphasis (i.e., technology, or art), that is not their sole purpose. That just means that they may offer more courses, and at higher levels, in those particular areas, if that’s your interest. Of course, our state is lucky, too, that we also have the NC School of the Arts, for performing and visual arts, which does require an audition, or portfolio review, but it’s free for high school students. We also have the NC School of Science and Math, also free, but which requires testing, too, and is selective. So there are lots of good options for kids here, especially for high school, and especially if they are in other areas of NC that do not have such a good magnet or school system.</p>
<p>at my school, i want to kill myself in any non-AP class. I took a standard English class this year: Writing. It’s more of an English for Spanish Speakers class. AP classes are the only ones that get work done at my high school.</p>
<p>Xiggi</p>
<p>Those minimum standards as you call them are the standards that virtually every public school in America operates under. Certainly there are some exceptions, Thomas Jefferson in Fairfax County, Va. for example. Still by and large most public schools in America do operate under those parameters.</p>
<p>“Those minimum standards as you call them are the standards that virtually every public school in America operates under.”</p>
<p>Isn’t it a bit cavalier to dismiss an argument with such a sleigh of hand? You probably could find “exceptions” in every school districts, especially on the account that schools HAVE to accept every one who knocks on the door with special needs. </p>
<p>From a study of the Milwaukee voucher project:</p>
<p>"Of course, skeptics might object that choice students could
have special advantages over regular public-school students
that explain their better graduation rates. But thats a hard
pill to swallow. To get into the Milwaukee program you have
to be from a low-income background, and research suggests
that participants are also more likely to be minorities and
to come from broken homes and that they have belowaverage
test scores when they enter the program.</p>
<p>Milwaukee has six public high schools that are academically
selective. You cant go to these schools unless you meet
certain criteria for achievement. Meanwhile, schools
accepting vouchers must take all comers, and have to choose
by random lottery if they have more applicants than open
seats. If any available public-school comparison group is
likely to be more advantaged than the citys choice students,
its the kids in these six schools."</p>
<p>As I stated originally, I truly have no real problem with school choice within the realm of the public schools. I realize that public schools in Milwaukee must accept any and all students. I have no objection to that at all. I stated as much in my first post on this subject.</p>
<p>I am fortunate to work in a public school that has the luxury of being somewhat selective. The first nineteen years of my career however this wasn’t the case. Even so we are required by system policy to accept a percentage of students with IEP’s, etc. We also do have students who come to us because the live in our zone.</p>
<p>My problem is with the desire expressed in some corners for vouchers for private schools who do not have to operate under the same constraints as public schools. I really have no fundamental issues with school choice for public schools.</p>
<p>
[quote]
quote form wharfrat: If a parent wants to send their child to a different public school and is willing to transport them then by all means they should be allowed to do so provided that the school has space and the student is willing/able to conform to expectations of behavior. [/quote/</p>
<p>Why do you allow the “other” chosen public school to decline because of space? — usually you anti-choicers don’t like choice because choice schools don’t have to accept all that apply? AND, what is this “and the student is willing to conform” business. You anti-choicers would never let a private school get away with that caveat.</p>
<p>oops messed up the quote form again…</p>
<p>That’s not really a great issue with private schools. They do not have to work under the same constraints public schools do with regard to due process, etc. If a private school wants to expel a child basically they can do it. After all, they are private and as a result can do pretty much what they want.</p>
<p>Again, I am not necessarily anti-choice. I am against public subsidizing of private school education through the use of vouchers.</p>
<p>“Again, I am not necessarily anti-choice. I am against public subsidizing of private school education through the use of vouchers.”</p>
<p>Hmmm, I thought you would support vouchers if private schools accepted a series of measures? Now, if I understand correctly, the opposition is plain and simple … vouchers cannot subsidizing private schools. </p>
<p>And this even, if the voucher represent only a fraction of what the public school spends on the same children. I thought it would be good math to avoid spending $6,000 to $9,000 per pupil in exchange of a voucher of less than $3,000. Of course, I forget that a greater number of pupils help amortize the collosal fixed expenses and lavish administrative salaries that are ever so beneficial to students. </p>
<p>And this even, if vouchers are only given to the poorest families when their school FAILS for two years. Yes, I can see how that is in the best interest of the children. Let’s keep them hostage of failing schools is so much more productive!</p>
<p>And this even, if the entire system benefits from the existence of the vouchers by bringing in competition and a … small reason to improve. Not that this should stop public schools to improve BEFORE vouchers arrive, but the studies demonstrate that an improvement appears in the public schools. </p>
<p>So, aren’t you supposed to favor programs that help poor students or improve the entire system? Of course, the real issues are that precious dollars would disappear from the greedy hands of whomever is in charge today and that, heaven forbids, a bunch of non-certified amateurs could do better with fewer resources in a leveled field. </p>
<p>What a tragedy it would be to see “public” funds be used in support of schools that have no other choice to close if unsuccessful! What a tragedy it would be to see lesser paid teachers deliver better performance and results! After all our country was built on the fear to be independent and competitive or on the need for a central and controlling system that takes care of everyone at the cost of excellence. Oops, the history books used in the schools I attended must have come from a pirate publisher because it appears that we fought countries where such system existed. </p>
<p>So, let’s stick to the NEA motto: No dollars left behind!</p>
<p>It is disgusting how poor of an effort that our schools are making, but one problem our school systems have that those European countries don’t is that we have students and families who aren’t willing to meet the schools halfway.</p>
<p>And promarket or not, you had to admire Stossel for getting in tha SC superintendent’s face and calling a spade a spade when she touted the fact that SC is #1 in improvement in SAT scores</p>
<p>Stossel: Well, when you’re dead LAST, what else can you DO but improve?</p>
<p>Stossel doesnt know about the european system that is a joke also. If you pick the BEST european school and compare it to a classroom full of ■■■■■■■ the outcome is predictable. As soon as they interviewed the Americans I knew they did not represent anyone I knew- those kids were losers. Stossel got the sensational outcome for his otherwise boring poorly rated shows. Talk about manipulation. What is the next Stossel show on ‘American Men make bad husbands and are insensitive?’</p>
<p>If any of you missed 20/20: Stupid in America: You can watch it here:</p>
<p><a href=“http://notweird.com/sia.html[/url]”>http://notweird.com/sia.html</a></p>
<p>wow, i couldn’t even get through reading the article describing the show without getting annoyed. seriously, it’s so biased it’s ridiculous. wow, most schools wouldn’t let a news show come in and film on their property, they must be covering up a giant conspiracy that looks to rip off the taxpayers and waste their money only to give substandard education? how about most schools have and should have policies against letting film crews come in and videotape their students? especially since it would require getting a ton of consent from all the parents. how much do you want to bet that stossel handpicked the footage presented to prove a point he decided on before even beginning to investigate? </p>
<p>do our school systems need a lot of work? yes. is giving more money to private schools the way to improve them? no. people want to think that the government is just ripping them off and wasting money and that all it takes is a simple solution and some plain thinking and everything will be fixed. If it was easy to fix, then it would be already. This is a complicated issue that many extremely intelligent, goodhearted people devote a lot of time to.</p>
<p>i have a parent who recently joined the school board and spends hours and hours going over notes and talking to people and reviewing packets the size of dictionaries and making very tough decisions because a certain governor doesn’t pay back what he promised (oh, and not to mention the threatening letter that was left on our doorstep while she was staying up nights stressing about this) and getting paid about $40 a month. not even enough to cover for gas. But clearly, all school teachers and officials are trying to create bad schools to cheat you and your children.</p>
<p>sorry if this was rambling, i’m just really annoyed right now.</p>
<p>"Hmmm, I thought you would support vouchers if private schools accepted a series of measures? Now, if I understand correctly, the opposition is plain and simple … vouchers cannot subsidizing private schools. "</p>
<p>Let’s face it, since few if any private schools would ever agree to operate under the conditions the vast majority of public schools MUST operate under
on a daily basis then yes I am opposed to public funding of vouchers for private education. You show me a private school who agrees to accept those terms and I will gladly agree that they too should be included in school choice.</p>