ABC 20/20 Tonight: Stupid in America, How we Cheat Our Kids

Parent Cafe
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<p>*In twenty years in the classrom I have heard many parents claim to want high standards and excellence from public schools. That is until it is their child who fails to meet the standard. Then the complaints come loud and clear that the standards are too high, the expectations are too great and should be lowered. *</p>

<p>I argued the other way
In third grade my D first year in public school she had a certified master teacher, she wrote reports, didn’t do much science, but she continued learning how to think critically and research that she had begun in private school.
however in 4th gd the curriculum was dumbed way down. I was appalled.It was fill in the blank and color the pictures. The year before was the teachers 1st year, however that was teaching 1st gd.
Perhaps she had worksheets left over.
THe school will always tell you, you are the only one with a problem- no
matter how many parents come to them seperately with the same concern.</p>

<p>In 5th gd- the teacher left after a couple weeks of getting the kids excited about what they were going to be working on. Her 85 year old mother was ill and because she lived several towns over, she needed more time to visit her. She didn’t go on sabatical, she would just call in every day, so the kids had subtitutes virtually all year. According to union contract- it was within her rights not to be replaced- but as has been noted elsewhere, the students don’t have a union.
The parents did not put this together for several month after talking to each other, and the principal finally held a meeting admitting that the class had been disrupted but that they must consider that she was a valued teacher ( which meant she had tenure).
The next year- an experienced teacher volunteered to take the bulk of the kids who had been in the disrupted class for 6th gd- they were still learning their times tables!
Parents are trained to have very low expectations, if we raise our expectations, we are told that the teachers need more money , even though the teachers are making more than what many of the parents are making, but the parents are taking time off work to come into the schools to help out, having to hire outside tutors so kids get bare basics at least, and enroll the kids in summer programs so they won’t lose the little that they learned over the school year.</p>

<p>To get rid of a teacher- our principal at least didn’t have to resort to a rubber room.
A teacher who was mentally unstable- had been the reading specialist for years, she had been hired because she was a parent and had volunteered in the school- not because she was a great teacher.
Many parents refused to send their kids to her, and paid for outside tutoring instead. THe principal finally became concerned and hatched a plan.
She assigned her a classroom of her own, for the next year ( when the principal would be gone). She began the year, but to be responsible for an entire 6th gd classroom was too much as the principal suspected, and she took a medical leave for a short time, came back for a week and then quit
Much faster than paying her to sit all day for years, but then the kids had a series of substitutes for the year until they found someone to hire after winter break( not to mention to have to go through the first month with teacher who was unstable)
I agree with the premise of the show- we need choice in our schools and principals need choices about what teachers to keep
<a href=“http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/the_truth/[/url]”>http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/schoolchoice/the_truth/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>A.S.A.P., </p>

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<p>This is an aside but please don’t make a blanket statement like this. Because a child has a learning disorder does not mean they can not function on a high level in school. It depends on the nature and extent of the learning difference, the motivation of the student, and the type of support they have. Moreover, you have no way of knowing which students in the class are dealing with a learning difference.</p>

<p>My daughter has ADHD and an auditory processing disorder. Daughter went through the standard battery of tests starting in second grade. She now attends a very tough private middle school. About a third of her classmates test for the Duke program. Until this year, she has maintained a 3.5 average. This year is an adjustment but she is giving it all she has and her grades are pulling up. </p>

<p>How does she do it? I am an educator and I help her with material that she has trouble understanding. She puts in a ton of time at home. It is simply not true that private school classes do not contain children with learning disabilities. </p>

<p>As an aside, one reason I choose a private school over a public one is precisely the thing that is mentioned in this article. I need and want more choice. We live near an excellent public high school that has a very strong IB program. I have seen the program ranked as third in the country. However, that high school would not be good for either of my children. My daughter would fall into the cracks. She is not an IB student but neither is she simply on-level and, in my opinion, the school focuses so much on IB (on which their reputation is based) that the needs of other students are ignored. My son is definitely IB material, but he would hate going to such a large high school. And, frankly, in 9th grade, he was not ready for a large school (that has changed in recent years).</p>

<p>Our own public school system does have a fair amount of choice built in. There are magnet (special interest) and vanguard (honors) schools and programs, specializing in a variety of areas. Some require entrance exams, some just require decent school performance in the past, and some are totally open to everyone. Several of our schools–Kipp and Harmony Academies–have achieved amazing results with kids who’ve come from disadvantaged backgrounds. They are strict, but do not use the draconian disciplinary tactics mentioned in that article. DeBakey, the medical high school, has also had some amazing success stories, as has the high school for performing arts. </p>

<p>Things are far from perfect, but they are improving and I feel this reporter is giving a pretty one-sided interpretation. There are lots of options where I live and parents do not have to settle for the neighborhood school if they and their kids take the time to investigate the choices. Whether this is true in other school systems, I do not know, but it is definitely the case here.</p>

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<p>In our neighborhood, a teacher who resides in our area, would have a hard time supporting a family on 60,000. I know to some that may sound strange, but we live where the cost of living is very high. For example, it would not be unusual for someone to live in a 70 year old"starter home" with 3 small bedrooms and 2 small original bathrooms, and pay 9,000 in property taxes (with a postage stamp sized property). In fact, I have seen the few young male teachers in our district leave for administrative positions. They want to become principals b/c climbing up the pay scale when you don’t start teaching at 22 is frustrating. I have seen the male teachers who started their teaching careers at 30 (give or take a couple of years) frustrated. It is often sparked when wives have who have worked full time, went to part-time when starting their families. The men have gone on for their masters in administration to climb up the pay scale. Many get out of the classroom after 5 years. We are losing good male teachers as a result.</p>

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<p>I agree, for the most part, with the argument that competition will improve performance.</p>

<p>In Maryland I had to move in order to get my kids out of a mediocre high school where “being stupid was cool” and average SATs were 1000 to another school where average SATs were 1230 (Math and varbal) and hard work was respected.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, there are some points left out of the tv program. If we allow vouchers, the rich and upper middle class will take advantage of this by reducing their contributions for private schools. The poor or middle class won’t be able to send their kids to private schools because the vouchers won’t probably cover the high tuition. Thus, we will be left with public school systems loaded with poor and learning disabled kids. It will result in a terrible public schools system.</p>

<p>The main problem is MONEY! If kids could choose schools and got enough vouchers to cover private school tuition, we could dramatically improve our educational system. However, there isn’t enough money for this nor is there enough space in private schools for everyone to attend.</p>

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<h1>1 - perhaps this is OK, but I’m not convinced that this is the core problem</h1>

<h1>2 - heartily agree; but the removal of tenure should not just make it easier to get rid of teachers who are so bad that they would end up in a NYC rubber room, but rather, also teachers which are routinely in the bottom 10 percent. Pay standards should follow that of any professional - the better you are (not just the longer you have been a teacher) the more you get paid.</h1>

<h1>3 - Besides driving taxes through the roof, this would give teachers the highest starting salary of any major coming out of college. Some may say that this is appropriate and needed to improve our educational system, but it could also have the reverse effect - attract people into the field just because it pays the best (and provides the longest vacations to boot), not because they have any passion for teaching. There are countless private schools who do a very good job at teaching that actually pay their teachers less than the public schools.</h1>

<h1>4 Perhaps at the high school level, but at the middle school level that amounts to overkill. For example, a masters in math would provide a knowledge level of subjects that would never be taught at the middle school level. I would rather the teachers at the middle school level have an excellent background in the subject that they teach but most importantly be experts at teaching. A math teacher who is a bad teacher will not become a great one by getting a masters degree in math.</h1>

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<p>One of my daughters ( private school) best teachers didnt’ even have an education degree and he only had a BA- his degree was in his subject.</p>

<p>I think they have already proved that throwing more money at it wont help- $60K for starting pay is astronomical, the average salary of american families is $45,000- that is average, not just right out of school without a family or other expenses besides loans
I think we should agree to cover loans for teachers- something that I think has been cut in past budgets- public workers should be encouraged not just by their 80% salary pensions, but by being able to begin post college life free of loans</p>

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<p>I am not generally a John Stossel fan (although he is a Princeton alum) but a friend who teaches in NYC schools tells horror stories just like the ones described here.</p>

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<p>I think evaluations of teachers by students also would help, both at the end of a class and then again the following year (some teachers classes are hated at the time due to being “challenging”, yet become the stuff of legend after info has been processed and the benefits understood). The consumers seem to me able to provide very level headed evaluations on the quality of their instruction.
I think the tenure system is a disaster for the schools and for the teachers who are burned out or not very good. It’s difficuilt voluntarily to give up a job for life and benefits (though I’ve heard teachers complain they hate their jobs and are just putting in their time till retirement) and take the risk of trying something new.
In our local school system the HS is trying to meet the needs of a stunningly diverse group of kids with few resourses. Approx 50% of students will go on to college and the school is receiving pressure to offer a wide selection of AP classes yet at the same time deal with “least restrictive environment” kids, behaviour disordered kids, provide training in various trades and help the kids who are basically living in their cars, working full time jobs and raising younger sibs. All on the tax $$'s from a community highly resistant to paying more in taxes for education. Additionally, the HS holds kids accoutable and some of them fail - not popular in the community and it doesn’t look good but what’s to be done when the kids arrive but can’t read adequately.</p>

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<p>Keep schools small
2) Eliminate tenure; introduce merit pay
3) Raise starting salalries for teachers to around 60K
4) Require middle and high school teachers to have a Master’s degree in the subject areas they teach (not just an ed degree). </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Perhaps rather than keep schools small, keep class sizes small. My two largest classes (30 students each) are the two that have the students with the greatest needs in terms of their ability to learn easily.</p></li>
<li><p>Merit Pay would need to be approached carefully. If done correctly it could be extremely beneficial. If done the wrong way it will cause far greater problems than it is intended to correct.</p></li>
<li><p>Raise starting salaries: Starting salaries in our area are not the problem. Our system’s starting salary is extremely competetive. When it comes to salaries it is when people get beyond their fifth year that our school system’s salaries are not adequate to compete with many other places. </p></li>
<li><p>Require middle and high school teachers to have a masters degree in the subjects the teach: In a perfect world maybe. I can also tell you I am considered to be an outstanding teacher within our school system. I know it sounds like I am bragging. I don’t intend to come off that way. I am generally admired and respected by my students as well as the greater community as a whole. I do not have a master’s degree in my subject area yet I know that I am effective in the classroom. My students learn and they perform on assessments. The other comment I would make with regard to this thought is it’s sometimes eas to forget that our discipline is not always the most important thing. My philosophy is that I don’t teach Social Studies, I teach kids.</p></li>
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<p>warfrat-
How’d your colleage handle the request from the judge to explain away the bad AP lit grade? </p>

<p>As for Stossel’s report last night, let me preface it by saying I enjoy his broadcasts. I find them thought-provoking.</p>

<p>One idea really struck me as provocative was the process they use in Belgium- which is essentially like a voucher system. The $ allocated to educate each child follows the child. So, the schools have to essentially earn the students’ business. The better the school, the more students want to go, the more $ available to the school. Makes good sense to me. Too bad Florida just defeated such an idea. I do believe that market competition is a good thing. Can the idea of free enterprise be somehow incorporated into government -run systems? Or is that a oxymoron (no pun intended). Is it silly for me to think that schools, administrators, acedemicians, etc should be accountable? Yes, I realize the system is more complex than this, but we have to start somewhere. The US public school system needs to be fixed. Seems to me that all too often the parents blame the teachers and the teachers balme the parents. Lets get off this merry-go-round and do whats best for the students. Just my $.02</p>

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<p>Interesting how he managed to leave out all the countries at the supposed top of the heap academically that offer NO choice, no vouchers, no charters, and have very few private schools.</p>

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<p>I’ve never been to Belgium, but do they have an urban underclass? How is admissions to the more desirable schools handled? Would it come down to admissions tests and preschool teacher recommendations and legacies? Wouldn’t the wealthy once again be at an advantage? </p>

<p>There are no easy answers to the current inequality in education. I was just looking at SAT scores of various school districts in my county. One end averages 700 combined, the other end averages 1300 (old). Would people in the million dollar suburb want those city kids using vouchers in their schools? How would they be transported? What happens to the kids left behind in really bad schools whose parents just don’t care? The idea of competition depends on the consumer having some degree of concern over the outcome.</p>

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<p>mini-
I dont see it as his “leaving out” other countries or systems. I see it as giving an example of a system that works. I am sure that there are other systems that work. But this one does too, and it makes good sense to me.</p>

<p>Hey, BTW, did you see the new President of Vassar was plucked from Williams?</p>

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<p>"I dont see it as his “leaving out” other countries or systems. I see it as giving an example of a system that works. I am sure that there are other systems that work. But this one does too, and it makes good sense to me.</p>

<p>I don’t have time for a long dissertation, but if you have 10 top countries “academically”, and you select the one that has a system that you’ve already decided you wish to advocate, you’ve done a rather excellent job of biased reporting. It would have been more interesting (to me) to see school systems that operate essentially the same way as ours do, get excellent results, and see what the differences are. (I have my own list of possible hypotheses, but it would have been interesting to see his.)</p>

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<p>I think there is entirely too much dismissal of the tenure system. Granted, it does protect some poor teacher’s jobs. However, tenure is not the problem-unversities in the US also have a tenure system and the universities are among the best in the world. Tenure is necessary job security in an otherwise ill paid and rewarded profession. The answer is having a culture that rewards educational attainment rather than monetary wealth. While some parents are involved in the school system, most are not and this lack of parental interest demonstrates the apathy most Americans possess towards education.</p>

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<p>momoffour-
There are always going to be parents who don’t care and whose children suffer. Stinks for them. Its a shame. But that doesn’t mean everyone has to suffer. Lets help those that want the help. And why would the wealthy be at an advantage if every kid has the same dollar amount allocated for their education? Seems to level the playing field more if every body had the same dollar value.</p>

<p>I have (fortunately) been to Belgium. BEAUTIFUL country. It has urban and rural areas, and with that comes a variety of classes. My h. has a relative who teaches ESL at the university level in a small town in Brussels near the coast of France (gorgeous, charming area!!). I guess I could email him with some of these questions if you’d like. </p>

<p>I thought about transportation issues. When they imposed forced bussing in the past, and something called-- oh I forget-- something like minority-to-majority or something-- where they were trying to shuffle kids to different schools to have greater balance, they figured out the transportation. That detail can be worked out. I have a few thoughts on that, but it’s probably premature to drone on about them at this point.</p>

<p>As for the bigger, social issue. It’d be great if we could get all parents to care enough about their kids and their education. Not going to happen wehn some parents take their government entitlements and buy cellphones, flat screen tvs and spinners that cost more than their car (if they own one). That is a big social problem. Agreed. But what about the good, hard-working, motivated, caring parent like the mother of the 18 yr old in SC who they highlighted on the show last night? She’d been beating her head against a wall trying to get adequate services for her kid (who had a reading disorder) for years. If she had had the opportunity to help her son and move him to a better school, she’d have jumped on it. It is these parents who deserve all the help we can give them.</p>

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<p>I know better than to get into a verbal tug-of war with mini. Not going there. There are school systems in other countries that are similar to the US who crank out stronger students. For sure. There are also school systems who kick out students who dont make the cut. And there are systems that have fierce competition for acceptance into the “right” upper schools. Puts a lot of pressure on the students at younger and younger ages. Solve one problem, create another. Its not an easy problem to solve. I just applaud Stossel for putting on a program that leads to these kinds of discussions. It is far better than apathy. However, if it digresses too much into a political discussion, I’m outa here! :)</p>

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<p>The stories about New York (the sex offender teachers that can’t be fired) were so incredible that I wouldn’t have believed them, COULDN’T have believed them, except that he was interviewing the Schools Chancellor! I still can’t quite believe it.</p>

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<p>FF,</p>

<p>Your concern about raising starting salaries is well taken, but I work with a number of former attorneys, engineers, and businesspeople who didn’t give teaching a second thought until they grew unsatisfied with their careers. I wonder whether higher salaries would have attracted these folks when they were younger, allowing them to discover their talent and love for teaching and giving them more years to work their magic in the classroom. Also, my proposals were meant to address the problem of ethos. True, higher pay doesn’t guarantee passion, and a Master’s degree does not a good teacher make, but money, status, and expertise are, for good or ill, the measures of value in our market-driven society, and until we play by the rules that we as a culture have set up, the students will see right through our half-hearted, almost hypocritical attempts to improve schools and convince them that education is something we care about and value.</p>

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<p><a href=“College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools”>College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools;
<a href=“http://www.act.org/news/data/05/states.html[/url]”>http://www.act.org/news/data/05/states.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>For this, I’m only going to look at states with a somewhat reliable data. States with low participation rates will have higher scores, as only top students will be taking the respective tests.</p>

<p>Now when you look across these tables, it’s pretty easy to pick out states where students are underperforming: Mississippi, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Texas, Washington D.C., Louisiana. Notice any kind of a pattern here?</p>

<p>This all kind of reminds me of the Social Security reform kick the Republicans were on earlier this year. The real idea wasn’t to ‘reform’ Social Security. It was to move it into bankruptcy at an accelerated rate so it could be done away with entirely a few years down the road. </p>

<p>Surprise surprise, the states where schools aren’t performing are solidly red. This isn’t about giving kids a better education, it’s about teaching kids Jesus with public funds.</p>

<p>Public schools in these states need reform. Of course “competition” will improve schools in these places. State governments aren’t giving schools what is necessary for kids to learn. Look at states like Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska, Washington, Oregon, etc. These are states where there has traditionally been a lot of emphasis on education, and you can see that students are outperforming national averages by a large margin. In the places where schools aren’t performing, public schools just aren’t a priority. In Florida, voucher plans have been defeated several times. But instead of taking the hint and trying to reform schools, Jeb Bush has simply proposed education vouchers again and again.</p>