Academies are urged to change course

[Zaphod]

<p>

Zaph-
You brought up the idea of eliminating plebe year.

No, just the Plebe System as it exists today.</p>

<p>

Maybe send in some DIs from quantico to give them a swift kick in the butt, but you also complained that mids did not get good hands on leadership experience. One of my best experiences in the past 4 years had been plebe summer cadre, followed closely by summer seminar squad leader.

I am willing to acknowledge that there may be some significant differences in place from when I was there, but I can still assure you that anything you learned as a Plebe Summer Detailer must be treated with extreme caution when applied in the Fleet. You’re not dealing with Plebes out there; you’re dealing with sailors and Marines, many of whom have been in uniform longer than you’ve been able to walk.</p>

<p>

For example, on YPs and CSNTS, most boats are entirely mid run. In fact, many do not even have an officer on board. They call this place a “leadership laboratory.” Many people agree or disagree with this statement.

I would disagree. It is one thing to give Mids the responsibilities of command and such, but to leave them completely unsupervised? What are the qualifications for a Mid to be the CO of a YP? Are the senior enlisted personnel normally assigned to each YP still aboard? Frankly, I think not having an Underway OOD and Inport CDO-qualified line officer aboard is nuts.</p>

<p>

It has been my exerience the opportunities for anyone to learn leadership are out there, and all you need to grow in your ability to lead is a desire to develop yourself. Throughout the 4 years you will be given numerous opportunities to lead, and whether or not you take advantage of them is entirely your choice. Depriving mids of leadership opportunities such as cadre is only having an adverse effect on midhsipmen’s development.

Incorrect. I am not advocating denying them any opportunities. I am suggesting that the opportuinities offered by the Plebe System may not be the best, and that alternatives should be considered.</p>

<p>

I guess I am such a big propenant of the current system because I have felt that it was beneficial to me. My year spent as a lowely plebe taught me an immeasurable amount about leadership. Throughout both the summer and the Academic year I saw examples of leadership every single day. Some were good, and some were bad. But the perspective of an entire year in a wholly subservient position showed me the leader that I would hope to become. It also showed me what I did not want to do as a leader.

Again, this is not about the Plebes. You mention that you saw examples of how not to lead, right? Perfectly valid. I saw my share, too, and many of those were in the mirror, though I didn’t recognize it until later. My point is that the upperclassmen in question should never have been placed in a situation to behave that way. Also, and this is the tricky bit, leadership is a very flexible entity; what works on some may not work on others. To “practice” leadership on a person who must obey you at all costs (i.e. - a Plebe) teaches nothing of how to deal later with people who have to obey you, sure, but also must RESPECT you in order perform well. You don’t get that (or at least didn’t) at USNA too much.</p>

<p>

If you go subs, you need to get through power school first… Aviation, you have flight school. It seems to me that there should be a greater emphasis on the humanities. As a leader, humanities classes develop to a greater extent the junior officer’s communication and general social skills which are invaluable when leadeing others. Furthermore, are actions, even aboard ship or subs, can effect people of other cultures. Having the cultural awareness to realize the implications of your actions can be valuable as well.

You don’t need more than one course to learn that, and if parents did their jobs, you’d know it before I-Day. As for the technical, yes you go to nuke or aviation or SWO school, but those are based upon the assumption that’s you understand basic scientific and engineering principles. Also, when you have an ET1 standing before you explaining that the high-speed whamadine short-circuited the inertial whozit, and that therefore the vertical discombobulator is now fused, and that’s why the ship can’t fire missiles, it helps to have some idea of EE and electromechanics. Not enough to fix the thing (nothing more dangerous than an officer with a screwdriver, remember?), but enough to understand what he’s saying and ask good questions rather than standing there with your tongue glued to the roof of your mouth.</p>

<p>The Plebe System has its benefits, especially when it comes to Plebes. However, I continue to believe (and perhaps there have been sufficient changes to convince me otherwise) that its the upperclassmen that it harms because the techniques used don’t translate well to the Fleet.</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>“I am willing to acknowledge that there may be some significant differences in place from when I was there, but I can still assure you that anything you learned as a Plebe Summer Detailer must be treated with extreme caution when applied in the Fleet.”</p>

<p>-The leadership challenges that academy grads experience in the fleet will differ from those they experience during plebe summer. Plebe summer obviously takes a unique leadership style that you cannot cut and paste into the fleet. However, many of the principles remain the same. The leadership principles that have stuck with me through my time are that one of your top priorities, just under mission accomplishment is taking care of the people under you. You also learn through plebe summer what types of leadership people respond to. The ability to make others respond out of an actual willingness to improve themselves vice a fear of reprisal is something extremely valuable that can be learned in plebe summer.</p>

<p>“I would disagree. It is one thing to give Mids the responsibilities of command and such, but to leave them completely unsupervised? What are the qualifications for a Mid to be the CO of a YP? Are the senior enlisted personnel normally assigned to each YP still aboard? Frankly, I think not having an Underway OOD and Inport CDO-qualified line officer aboard is nuts.”</p>

<p>-The biggest stipulation is that there must be a craftmaster onboard. That is either an enlisted E-5 or E-6 from the Naval Station or in some cases the MIDN CO may be a craftmaster. Basically though, the enlisted craftmaster often times is there only in the event that there is a navigation issue where the mids need his assisstance. Also every squadron has an officer in charge, as well as few other officers throughout the squadron. Normally they ran all the inport liberty/duty issues.</p>

<p>“You don’t need more than one course to learn that, and if parents did their jobs, you’d know it before I-Day.”</p>

<p>-Apparently that is not the case though. It has been past on to us that one of the biggest complaints that COs have of USNA grads is their inability to write well. You should know as well as I do that there are many mids who, if you give them an advanced physics problem they have no problem solving it, but if you make stand up in front of a crowd to give a presentation they may stumble through their speech if they are lucky.</p>

<p>“Again, this is not about the Plebes. You mention that you saw examples of how not to lead, right? Perfectly valid. I saw my share, too, and many of those were in the mirror, though I didn’t recognize it until later. My point is that the upperclassmen in question should never have been placed in a situation to behave that way.”</p>

<p>-Yes, many times, especially youngster summer during summer seminar detail, I saw many of my classmates on power trips (the one on the biggest power trip was a future brigade commander… go figure). However, by in large most mids really do not overstep there leadership bounds, and for the most part actually do a decent job. However, there are bad examples out there, and we learn from these people. If these upperclassmen should never be in a position to behave that way, then what is your proposed solution? Personally I would rather see this large spectrum of leadership styles so that I can figure out what works best for me.</p>

<p>“The Plebe System has its benefits, especially when it comes to Plebes. However, I continue to believe (and perhaps there have been sufficient changes to convince me otherwise) that its the upperclassmen that it harms because the techniques used don’t translate well to the Fleet.”</p>

<p>-How did firsties act when you were a mid? For the most part it is only the 2/c that really gave the plebes a hard time. More than anything, especially as 2/c semester plebes, the firstie squad leaders treat the plebes with a certain level of humanity that they may not see too often during the rest of their plebe year.</p>

<p>Also, how do you quote other people’s posts?.. I’m obviously not doing it correctly</p>

[Spidermom]

<p>This is a very enjoyable discussion with merits to all sides. From my POV, it seems better to encourage the detailers to act more like they would in roles they will assume in the fleet. However, the “taking care of your people” maxim means giving them what they need to be successful and for plebes that means stress. Perhaps detailers could get some of the training that DIs get before they are turned loose so that they’d understand the psychology of what they are trying to accomplish.</p>

<p>Nah…they don’t have time, do they?</p>

[Zaphod]

<p>

The leadership principles that have stuck with me through my time are that one of your top priorities, just under mission accomplishment is taking care of the people under you.

How does yelling at them and making them do stupid Plebe tricks teach you that?</p>

<p>

The ability to make others respond out of an actual willingness to improve themselves vice a fear of reprisal is something extremely valuable that can be learned in plebe summer.

Unless something has changed, I can assure you the Plebes aren’t getting that lesson.</p>

<p>

The biggest stipulation is that there must be a craftmaster onboard. That is either an enlisted E-5 or E-6 from the Naval Station or in some cases the MIDN CO may be a craftmaster.

Ah, yes! That’s the term! Thanks!</p>

<p>

Basically though, the enlisted craftmaster often times is there only in the event that there is a navigation issue where the mids need his assisstance. Also every squadron has an officer in charge, as well as few other officers throughout the squadron.

OK. That’s different than originally described and makes more sense. </p>

<p>

You should know as well as I do that there are many mids who, if you give them an advanced physics problem they have no problem solving it, but if you make stand up in front of a crowd to give a presentation they may stumble through their speech if they are lucky.

Yep, which is why (again, unless things have changed) you will be taking a public speaking mini-course during your 2/C summer. Presenting, giving briefs, and writing should definitely be stressed. The usefullness of the skillset transcends the Navy.</p>

<p>

Yes, many times, especially youngster summer during summer seminar detail, I saw many of my classmates on power trips (the one on the biggest power trip was a future brigade commander… go figure). However, by in large most mids really do not overstep there leadership bounds, and for the most part actually do a decent job. However, there are bad examples out there, and we learn from these people. If these upperclassmen should never be in a position to behave that way, then what is your proposed solution? Personally I would rather see this large spectrum of leadership styles so that I can figure out what works best for me.

Selecting a leadership style should not be done by selecting from a smorgasborg of different styles, good and bad. They should be taught up front what is right and not right, when it is OK to let things slide and when the whip must be cracked.</p>

<p>It is true that many learn from mistakes. I was one of those on the power trip, and my classmates gently but definitely shoved it up my tailpipe one day, and I leanred the lesson quick. Others don’t however. The one thing in common is that we were all following the examples we saw when we were Plebes, or were subscribing to the “It’s OUR turn to get some PAYBACK!” mentality, which is a LOUSY leadership style.</p>

<p>The best method to learn leadership is to practice it. I just don’t think that the type of leadership upperclassmen are expected to practice on Plebes is the best method. The leadership the upperclassmen practice among each other is actually far better.</p>

<p>

How did firsties act when you were a mid? For the most part it is only the 2/c that really gave the plebes a hard time. More than anything, especially as 2/c semester plebes, the firstie squad leaders treat the plebes with a certain level of humanity that they may not see too often during the rest of their plebe year.

It was the same way in my day, only by then they had already gone through 2/C year and therefore learned the bad lessons. Some guys NEVER learned it, I’m sorry to say. I actually know of one clown who tried to make his Chief brace up. You can imagine how THAT went over! :rolleyes:</p>

<p>

Also, how do you quote other people’s posts?.. I’m obviously not doing it correctly

To quote text, do this:</p>

<p><quote>This is the text I want to quote.</quote></p>

<p>Only insted of using “<” and “>”, use “[” and “]”, respectively.</p>

[Zaphod]

<p>

However, the “taking care of your people” maxim means giving them what they need to be successful and for plebes that means stress.

Negative. They don’t need stress. They need to learn how to handle stress. While it is true that the best way to learn that is to be under stress, the METHOD by which the stress is applied is more important.</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p><quote>How does yelling at them and making them do stupid Plebe tricks teach you that?<quote></quote></quote></p>

<p>Yes, they do the normal plebe stuff… Chopping, squaring corners, bracing etc etc etc. However, taking care of your people is something you definitely pick up over the summer. That entails going down almost daily to King Hall and filling a cooler full of ice so that the half of your squad that needs it can ice up after blue and gold every night. Remembering to keep an eye on those who are attempting to battle through injuries during PEP on make sure they don’t hurt themselves too badly. Conducting relaxed counseling sessions where the plebes feel comfortable to relate to you any problems that they may be having, and then working to fix those problems.</p>

<p><quote>Unless something has changed, I can assure you the Plebes aren’t getting that lesson.</quote></p>

<p>Take it for what its worth, but I have heard many stories of plebes who actually work hard because of their leader. Many times it may be a matter of not wanting to let down the person that they look up to… It sounds kind of cheezy, but I have seen it happen many times.</p>

<p>the Naval Academy is far from perfect, but despite that I think its pretty damn good, and I would be hard pressed to find a better place to get hands on leadership experience. Despite all the grumblings from alumni and mids alike about how the Academy is being run, I still think it is good place, and far from “going down the tubes.”… That being said, the word is that next year it will be a “New Naval Academy,” which is a good thing, because they are definitely some problems. Although I would just like to say that I am happy that I will miss out on them.</p>

<p>-looks like the attempt at quoting didnt work out too well</p>

[Spidermom]

<p>I agree. That’s what I meant exactly. </p>

<p>To be one of those people entrusted with providing the right amount of stress in the right way, for the right reason is an awesome responsibility. My bootcamp company commanders did it superbly but they’d been to specialized training and had beaucoup fleet experience. My OCS experience was a joke in comparison because they had the class ahead of us acting as “cadre”. They’d only been in OCS a few months themselves. Glad to see that foolishness stopped.</p>

<p>How closely do the senior enlisted guide the detailers? Close would be good. How are they trained and evaluated I wonder?</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>Mids, especially 1/c mids, are the best people to run plebe summer. The basic goal of plebe summer is to transform civilians into basically trained mids that are ready to join the brigade in august… Who better to do that than those people who have lived the life of a mid for 3 years. The Senior Enlisted Leaders watch what detailers are doing. However, for the most part they take a hands off approach unless they feel there is a clear violation of authority</p>

[Zaphod]

<p>

looks like the attempt at quoting didnt work out too well

</p>

<p>Go back and read my post again.</p>

<p>Oh, and bring me a deuce for failure to follow! :D</p>

[Spidermom]

<p>Interesting, stallion. If it isn’t really broke, don’t fix it, I guess. What if anything would you tweak?</p>

<p>I think you just missed the forward slash in the end quote: </p>

[Zaphod]

<p>Sorry for the delay…</p>

<p>There is no doubt that despite whatever faults it may have, USNA is one hell of a leadership school. No one is saying anything different. The discussion here is more along the lines of how to make it better. It would seem that, either due to the presence of new leadership, attitudes, or enlisted personnel, that some changes have been made. It’s good to hear. Last year I recall commenting on how it seemed that the Detailers were screaming a lot less than in my day, and that was a good thing. If this is a trend, then I certainly hope it continues. I just want the lessons learned to be done so with as little pain as possible, and with as few “lessons” like mine being needed.</p>

<p>A “New Naval Academy”, eh? That’ll be interesting to see. Comments like that have been floating around since… 1845, I bet! :D</p>

<p>I do wish they’d do away with the term “Cadre”, though. I HATE that damned word! :mad:</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>

Oh, and bring me a deuce for failure to follow!

</p>

<p>Is that some reference to something before my time?</p>

<p>The whole “New Naval Academy” rumor came from an 0-5 who was commenting on the fact that the new Dant and Supe will making considerable policy changes next year, and that the rest of the fleet is looking at the Naval Academy and trying to figure out what the hell is going on… should be interesting. I’m sure I’ll here all about it next year</p>

[Zaphod]

<p>

Is that some reference to something before my time?

Oy vey! Is nothing sacred? :eek:</p>

<p>

and that the rest of the fleet is looking at the Naval Academy and trying to figure out what the hell is going on…

In what way? </p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>ohhhhh… is a deuce a form 2??? I’ve heard about them in old books about the Academy. Come on Zaph, you need to get up with the times. We’ve been E-Frying for years now.</p>

<p>

In what way?

</p>

<p>I’m referring to all the Alumni grumbling that has been going on concerning the Supe, recent events at the Naval Academy, and the apparent lax atmosphere that has taken over in the past few years. I’ve seen much of it played out on this board… Lots of “Back when I was a mid” posts</p>

[Zaphod]

<p>

Come on Zaph, you need to get up with the times. We’ve been E-Frying for years now.

</p>

<p>LOL! Hey, can you blame me? When I got out in 1996, the Navy was JUST THEN moving to Microsoft Windows… Version 3.0! :eek:</p>

<p>As for the “When I was a Mid”. Yeah, there’s lots of that. You’ll do it, too, trust me. ;)</p>

<p>The sad (happy?) fact is that, like it or not, USNA is looked at to maintain higher standards than almost any other group in the Navy. Enlisted sailors expect more, and are disappointed more deeply, when a USNA grad turns up and doesn’t work out right.</p>

<p>Those of us who had to fight the preconceptions planted by those who went before us have become sensitive to how USNA is viewed, and all desire that the perception (and the underlying reality) be that USNA IS the best place around. Throw in the ease with which the internet allows general chatter, and the voices can get pretty loud.</p>

<p>Still the best place around, though. I wear my Ring daily and have my USNA pennant proudly pinned in my cubicle. They can’t take away the pride.</p>

<p>Hang in there and bear with us. We’re all on your side whether you think so or not. ;)</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>

Those of us who had to fight the preconceptions planted by those who went before us have become sensitive to how USNA is viewed, and all desire that the perception (and the underlying reality) be that USNA IS the best place around.

</p>

<p>The same is true for those that are soon to face the preconceptions. The grumbling isn’t reserved just for the alumni.</p>

<p>

As for the “When I was a Mid”. Yeah, there’s lots of that. You’ll do it, too, trust me.

</p>

<p>I know. I already find myself saying “back when I was a plebe.”</p>

[USNA1985]

<p>

We’ve been E-Frying for years now

</p>

<p>Really? How does that work? Remember, when I was there, PCs were a thing of the future. We still used – dare I say it – typewriters. <hearing gasps=“” from=“” the=“” current=“” generation=“”></hearing></p>

<p>The one thing about “bringing around a deuce” is that there was at least a chance that the upperclassman would change his mind before you got back. </p>

<p>Also, do CMODs still maintain a paper log or is that now electronic as well?</p>

[Zaphod]

<p>

The grumbling isn’t reserved just for the alumni.

</p>

<p>LOL. Yeah, we *****ed all the time, too. :D</p>

<p>

I know. I already find myself saying “back when I was a plebe.”

</p>

<p>LOL! Oh, man, and the Dark Ages aren’t even over yet! LOL! :D</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>Typewriters??? That must have been rough. I have no clue how this place functioned before computers, internet and email. But anyway, there is this things on the usna website called MIDS. It has a ton of info. You can look up anyone’s schedule, pull up your record, enter excuses for missed classes, put in summer preferences etc etc… Also on this network is a module for firsties to enter a fry. Once you enter the fry, the person gets an email notifying themselves of the fry, and then the put in a plea. From their it goes to an adjudication.</p>

[itlstallion422]

<p>CMODS still have the paper log</p>