Accepted... now what?

doughmom · January 13, 2012, 1:21am

I think there are any number of reasons that what it takes to get into a college bears little relation to how well you’ll do when you’re there. There are schools with low admission standards that weed students out once they are there, and there are schools that are nearly impossible to get into that will do everything in their power to make sure that kids succeed once they are admitted. Also, there’s all sorts of reasons that someone may seem to be a stronger or weaker candidate (breezed through high school, bad day on the SATs).

I was waitlisted before I attended my school, and I was one of the stronger students there once I decided to be a student. Unless you have reason to believe your daughter will have trouble, I wouldn’t be intimidated by the statistics.

HImom · January 13, 2012, 1:53am

My D would NEVER have gotten admitted to her college if she applied in the regular course, especially after being asked to leave HS after JR year. She’s well BELOW the average freshman they admitted (in HS grades, especially with the lower grades she received JR year). She went to CC & did great there & transferred to her U. She has had to work hard but was admitted into a very selective college at her competitive U and is very happy there. She should be graduating this spring with her friends from her HS, who enrolled as freshmen at that U.

Hug your D & congratulate her & see what SHE feels she wants to do after all her options are available. Great to have good options to choose among!

Creekland · January 13, 2012, 6:01am

I’d be wondering why her scores were in the bottom 25%. If she tenses up and does poorly on standardized tests, it wouldn’t worry me. If her major weren’t Math/English dependent and her talents were in other subjects, it wouldn’t worry me.

However, if her school is one with grade inflation, but poor actual content within the classes, then it would worry me as her foundational knowledge will be substandard compared to the other students. This is what happens in our local school. Kids get high GPAs, lousy test scores, sometimes get accepted to “better” (not high) colleges and then do poorly due to lack of a decent foundation. Many test into remedial college classes AFTER having gotten good grades in our calculus or higher English classes, etc. Their SAT scores DO reflect their preparation level - though I’d argue it isn’t their fault, it still doesn’t help.

Know your situation before you decide. My youngest is one who is talented in other fields, so I’m not expecting high scores and won’t let that affect where he goes. Chances are, admissions won’t care as much about his SAT/ACT either.

Marian · January 13, 2012, 7:12am

To expand a bit on what Creekland said, it may be a good idea to think about the quality of her high school preparation. How well do kids from this school do in college compared to their college classmates?

Do your daughter know any recent graduates from her high school – or do you know any of their families? It would be interesting to ask them about this.

Another thing to look for is how AP test scores compare to classroom grades in the AP course. As a rough guide, I would expect that a student who gets an A in a well-taught AP course would likely get a 4 or 5 on the AP test, while one who gets a B would likely get a 3 or 4, and one who gets a C would likely get a 3 or lower.

But if at your school, kids who get high grades in AP courses typically get low scores on AP tests, then your high school isn’t teaching the AP curriculum well, and that could be a danger sign.

Another thing to consider is how your daughter’s GPA would stack up against that of her potential classmates if it was calculated based on grades 10-12 (use her mid-year grades for grade 12), ignoring grade 9, where she did not do well. The more recent GPA is probably more meaningful (and some colleges recalculate GPAs this way anyway).

Creekland · January 14, 2012, 7:59am

Yes, our school dropped AP classes since students seldom got a 2, much less higher. Now we offer “College in the High School” where the teacher determines if the student gets college credit supposedly equivalent to our local community college. IMO, the content of student knowledge isn’t any better - especially since many still test into remedial classes at decent 4 year colleges.

Flo123 · January 14, 2012, 9:26am

Very generally speaking, I would rather be surrounded by people smarter than me, than be the smartest one in the room. The school has no reason to admit someone that they don’t fully anticipate can handle the classwork.

I would also check out the “percentage of returning freshman”, if you can’t find it on the school’s website, check the “Fiskes Guide to College” book. Many top schools are near 95%, meaning once they get in, the school has resources available to make sure the students succeed.

Marian · January 14, 2012, 10:00am

The definition of “success” differs from one student to another.

Some students consider that they have met their goals if they pass their courses and graduate, and that’s fine. But others have higher standards, often for practical reasons (they may want to get into a particular type of graduate or professional school that requires an excellent academic record or they may aspire to jobs in fields where there is a GPA requirement – often 3.5 – for entry-level jobs).

The college’s definition of success is that the student graduates. But if there is a reason why your particular student needs or wants to meet a higher standard, that could be an argument against going to a college where the student might be near the bottom of the class.

bajamm · January 14, 2012, 10:28am

I’d say give her a chance, let her decide, and let her go if she wants to. Someone is in the bottom 25% of a class, can’t have a class without it, even if everyone’s numbers are perfect or nearly so. The school likes to have students that return and graduate, they don’t like to admit new students who likely won’t do well and drop out. You D will likely do alright and thrive if that is where she wants to be.

northeastmom · January 14, 2012, 11:15am

It could work out beautifully. Taking money out of the equation, if it were my child I would not take that chance.

Flo123 · January 14, 2012, 12:03pm

Without knowing what school and major the OPs daughter is considering, it is hard to give solid advice. For example, at the “insert big name here” investment firm my husband is at, they only interview at certain schools, so even if you are #1 somewhere else, your resume won’t get read.

I understand when Marian says that some majors need to post a certain GPA to go on to the next step. I would just rather be sitting across the desk from a potential employer explaining how I wanted to challenge myself and go to the best school I could rather than having to explain why I took an easy route.

Debbie7452 · January 14, 2012, 1:26pm

To echo others thoughts…College success is based on so much more than SAT’s. I have a D who is in her second year and thriving. She thinks that it is mainly due to time management and organization skills! Of course, it helps that she really loves her chosen major and is set on the correct path to start with. That is very important.

calmom · January 14, 2012, 6:26pm

I think that’s reading more into the score range than is really there. In general, at selective colleges, the reported median range is roughly 100 points (for example, at Haverford it is 650-750 on each test; if you look at stats from less selective colleges, you still that on each test, the middle 50% falls within an 80-120 point range). I believe the standard deviation on the SAT is 110 points, and margin of error 60 points. So there really is no significant difference in scores at the 25th percent level and scores at the 75th percent level – they tend to all fall within one standard deviation.

Where data is available via the CDS, you can see that in general the students taken from the “bottom” 25% generally are not that much weaker than the 25th% level. That is, I’ve mentioned many times that my d’s scores put her at the bottom level – but, for example her college (Barnard) has a reported range of 630-730 CR, 620-710 math – she scored 620 CR, 580 math… that’s below the 25% mark, but not significantly below.

I think when statisticians are looking at the predictive aspects of the SAT they are looking at a broader range of scores – the median score range of all test-takers – where 500 is the median score. So there probably is a marked difference between students who score 400 (100 points below median) and students who score 600 (100 points above median).

But when you are looking at the predictive value of the scores for a kid who scores 550 vs. 750 … you are looking at a narrower range of ability, among students who by definition have above-average ability. The 400-600 range would cover student at at the 18th through 80th percentile on the CR test – so that is 62% of all test-takers. The 550-750 range covers students at the 67tn - 98th percentile – so that is a range that is only 31% of test takers, half the size of the range centered over the true median.

So you are going to see a much smaller “predictive” impact within that narrow band. I honestly believe that students who score at the 70th percentile or above are probably perfectly capable of performing well in any college environment, with the possible exception of a handful of particularly rigorous courses of study.

To add to that, in the the absence of a clearly identifiable hook, every kid with a low-end SAT score who is accepted to a selective college has some sort of counterweight – some reason that the ad com is choosing that kid despite weaker test score. Perhaps the applicant has very strong high school grades, or has complete a particularly rigorous high school curriculum; or perhaps the student is lopsided with particular academic abilities or other talents that make her attractive to the ad com. But any way you look at it, there is something that student has which compensates for the weaker scores. Most of the time, those compensating factors are probably things that mitigate against whatever predictive value the SAT score has.

In other words, a kid with a 550 SAT and a 3.2 GPA is not the same as a kid with a 550 SAT and a 4.0 GPA – and it gets kind of tricky when you are comparing a kid with a 550 SAT/4.0 GPA with a kid with a 750 SAT/3.2 GPA.

Bottom line: the college admissions committee has already decided that the kid is likely to do well enough at their college – otherwise they would not have admitted her. (“Well enough” because they can’t reasonably expect 100% of the student they admit to end up graduating in the top 10% ).

Creekland · January 14, 2012, 7:31pm

^^^ I understand what you are saying, but among the thousands of students I’ve seen, there is a vast difference in ability between the 550 and 750 (or even 550 and 650) scores for any particular section. There are rare cases where a student scores low, but has more ability in those subjects, but they are extremely rare in my experience.

That said, we are only talking about those subjects (math and English). There are many other majors out there that aren’t math or English dependent. My youngest son is super talented for one of those. He won’t score super high, but I suspect others heading toward his planned future won’t either.

We also are only talking about foundations of academic preparedness for college. Scores say nothing about work ethic or distractibility once out on their own.

So yes, pending all those factors, someone in the lower 25% could do well (and many do), but I stand by my thoughts that I would want to know the reason before sending my kids off to college in that bracket. I’ve seen far too many get accepted (with the 550/4.0) and feel overwhelmed when the reality is that that just aren’t as prepared as their new peers. If that’s the cause, I’d want to save them the woes associated with it.

In general, I suspect anyone with a 650 on up could do well pretty much anywhere. They don’t need to top out the scores. Those who do top out the scores often have an advantage IF they have a decent work ethic and are careful about falling in love. They tend to have a rude awakening at some point if they never had to work before.

Lakemom · January 14, 2012, 8:50pm

Interesting thread. I think psychologically it depends on whether the student would feel if they stayed in the bottom 25% but did graduate from the harder school would they be okay with it ego wise.

it is like comparing a Ivy education to a state flagship education. Would your student rather graduate from Cornell in the lower third knowing they might stay in the lower third or would it feel better to graduate from University of Mass in the upper third and probably not have to work as hard?

I think both the parent and student need to soul search a bit to decide what would be right for them.

boysx3 · January 14, 2012, 9:09pm

The president of the university spoke at my oldest son’s matriculation ceremony…he asked,“how many of you were in the top 10% of your high school class?” Almost every hand went up (school was a “top 20” accordning to USNWR). The president looked around the auditorium and said, “I can guarantee that 90% of you here today will not be graduating in the top 10%…and that is OK. All of you are here because you can do the work, and all of you are capable of benefitting from and contributing to the educational environment here on campus.”

My son’s first round of midterms was not pretty…it took him a bit of time to adjust. We never tracked his grades. He never worried about his grades. He loved the academic environment. He was shocked when he discovered he was graduating summa cum laude.

morrismm · January 14, 2012, 9:12pm

My D2 ( entering second semester senior) often tells me how scared she was after being accepted to her school. Some of her stats were on the lower end statistically for the school and she felt she was just accepted because she was legacy and applied ED. She thought she would really struggle and always get the lowest grades. She was intimidated.

Well she is just starting her last semester with a 3.78 gpa and had a 4.0 the last two semesters. She is an RA, has leadership positions in several extra-curricular activities, was a calculus tutor for two years, etc. She often comments about how she doesn’t understand how some of her fellow students got accepted to the school and how some of them are so lazy or disinterested.

D1 attended an Ivy. She too, not having a 2400 or even 2200 SAT felt intimidated. She graduated with a 3.99 and has a job equally, or more, as difficult to get as Ivy league acceptance.

OP, don’t worry about the competition. If she was accepted, she can do it and even be at the top.

ucbalumnus · January 14, 2012, 9:28pm

For what it is worth, UC found that SAT-R CR has a weak (but positive) predictive value on college grades, with SAT-S tests being better and high school grades being even better, but there was still plenty of room for individual students to not match the predictions. They also found that the math sections had no predictive value on college grades, though that is probably explained by self-sorting of students into math-heavy, math-light, and no-math majors.

[CSHE</a> - Validity Of High-School Grades In Predicting Student Success Beyond The Freshman Year: High-School Record vs. Standardized Tests as Indicators of Four-Year College Outcomes](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)

However, a University of Oregon study did find that SAT-R M was predictive of success in math-heavy majors (math and physics; UO does not have engineering), with almost no students entering with a score below 600 succeeding in those majors. But in other majors, they found students who succeeded despite low SAT scores on entry.

[[1011.0663</a>] Nonlinear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics](<a href=“http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.0663][1011.0663”>[1011.0663] Nonlinear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics)

The OP should take heed of what some posters mentioned, which is to figure out why the student’s stats are low compared to the middle range. Some reasons are relatively innocuous (e.g. poor standardized test taking which would not really affect much in college, except for GRE/LSAT/MCAT/GMAT/etc. tests, or lower class rank due to highly competitive high school, or lower GPA due to less grade inflation at high school), while others are potentially much more of a problem (e.g. low standardized test scores exposing the local K-12 system’s weak preparation for college and/or grade inflation).

cadteach · January 14, 2012, 9:38pm

Thanks to all for the replies. I’m not sure what her final decision will be. We’ll support her and hope for the best. I know she has earned the right to attend based on the work she has put in and the huge improvements in her grades.

We looked closely at freshman retention rate before we applied, as well as graduation rates. We only applied to places that were in good shape for both.

It’s probably silly to even worry.

Thanks again.

jaylynn · January 14, 2012, 10:00pm

Maybe not exactly the same thing, but my daughter has come right out and said she doesn’t want to work super hard in college. ::eye roll:: While I know that sounds bad, I do understand what she means. She could work hard at a reachy school and be floundering, or be a star. Who knows. Or she could work hard at the match schools she’s selected, and do well, and have a great experience, and see what kind of bliss she finds. I’m fine with that. I’m okay with her having enough self-awareness to know herself, and I suspect she’ll do well with this attitude.

I remember the joke we told in med school: “What do you call the person who graduates last in his medical school class?”

“Doctor.”

Snork.

MisterK · January 14, 2012, 10:35pm

I would counsel my own kids to not apply to any school where they’d be in the bottom 25%, unless it was an exceptional nonacademic set-aside case, such as a sports recruitment, where the standards would be expected to be different.

Accepted... now what?

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