Yeah–but are they admitting kids like my nephew–would be the operative question. The article suggests they are using this vehicle to admit wealthy kids who can pay, athletic recruits who wouldn’t make the test cut, and, possibly, URM’s. My nephew doesn’t belong to any of these categories.
I’m sorry–I still don’t understand your point about score average. The score average will go up if those who score low don’t submit scores. And, though I appreciate your help, Hanna, I feel like you’re yelling at me.
He will certainly apply to these schools, even if he has to submit his ACT score for the ones that aren’t test optional. But I think he should probably also apply to schools with lower ACT average so he doesn’t risk getting completely shut out. And, from what I read in your 3rd paragraph, I think you’re agreeing with me that he needs to widen his list.
Ugh, I hate that the link didn’t show up, but I’m glad you found the site anyway.
Anyway, I think what it boils down to is that a 20 ACT score is actually pretty much the average composite score for many states. http://www.act.org/newsroom/data/2013/states.html So, for every kid here on CC that scores above 30, there are outliers on the lower end of the scale as well. I don’t know what schools he has in mind, but I think state schools will be a good bet in general. One caveat,not sure if this applies in this case, but I know in our state you need at least a 21 to qualify for the lottery scholarship.
@dec51995 Do you realize that the most selective test optional schools went test optional before the US News rankings ever existed? It was all based on research that the tests were not predictive. A lot of people from all different schools studied the issue as well. I can’t speak for other schools but in the case of Bowdoin and Bates the idea grew from the teachers.
Anyway it’s probably best you put aside the conspiracy ideas because a 3.8 GPA student will not be happy at a school that accepts 20 ACT student’s. That would equate to C+ students.
Do you need some suggestions for good test optional schools?
I’m wondering not about admission, but about the reasons for that score. Your nephew seems to be a strong student, so what is it about the test that could account for that score. I am thinking about issues that could possibly give him difficulty in college- such as needing more time than the test allows, difficulty with multiple choice questions, or if most sections were OK but one or two were difficult for him. Certainly test optional colleges are an option he should pursue, but also I would not want to overlook something that may give him trouble in college. Most colleges have learning centers, tutors, if he needs help with a subject.
You said he is interested in the ministry? If this is the case, then is he interested in going directly into a college for that? The scores may be less of an issue for admission, but still ministry requires strong reading and language skills. Also the less selective colleges may be the ones that do not meet full financial need so that is a consideration as well. If finances are an issue, what are his local/state options?
He sounds like a great kid, with a lot of ability. I think the key is to find the best fit for him- where he will do well and be happy.
“The score average will go up if those who score low don’t submit scores.”
Yes, as long as non-submitters get in. You said, “Presumably, the schools reject students who apply test optional.” That’s wrong. If they rejected the students who applied test-optional, then the score average of the admitted class wouldn’t go up.
Let’s say the admitted class is two students. Their scores are 30 and 20, with an average of 25. Now let’s go score optional. I can admit the same two students, and presto! Now the class average is 30 because the 20 didn’t submit his scores. This only works if I admit the non-submitter, not if I reject him.
Now, is Mr. 20 a URM? Maybe, but if that’s what the school’s looking for, then he’s getting the seat regardless. The fact that some seats may be reserved for full-payers, URMs, etc. does not change based on whether a school is score-optional or not. The bottom line is that a white male with a 20 is better off not submitting that score unless he has to.
Regarding my tone, I was called to the thread via private message, and I came immediately and answered your question. And then I hear that no one offered a “real answer” and that I’m oversimplifying. Well, that’s frustrating.
@Pennylane2011: I’m a little concerned about his college readiness, too–especially on the reading front. I’m a teacher–as are his parents. I’m not sure what is going on with him. I’ve always suspected that his school is just pretty easy to get A’s in. For example, in his chemistry class, the students didn’t do a single lab! When you don’t have enough students to require AP’s or advanced math, students don’t have much option to develop their intellects, and my nephew has always been drawn to sports and music more than to studies. I don’t know anything but his composite score at this point. He would go from undergrad to the seminary–should he still have that interest in 5 years.
As far as college choices, he’s interested in LAC’s, not state universities. Wants something small in a bucolic area, not a city school or a large university. I agree that if he goes for a less selective college, he might get gapped in financial aid. That’s another cause for concern.
I think I got distracted by the test optional argument, but you all have helped me see that it would be better to gamble on the test optional than to send him to a school with lower academic standards. I don’t think it’s quite a conspiracy theory, @BatesParent2019, and I also think that there’s no such thing as a completely equitable college admission process. As @Hanna said, colleges are naturally going to choose the students that are best for the future of the school, and in this rankings-conscious age, schools need to consider their test scores and selectivity as a selling point. These articles referenced two studies about the effect of test optional policies on student composition. My information wasn’t from a peer-reviewed journal, but the articles were published in reputable popular journals like Forbes and New York Times. The article itself mentioned that Bates was one of the schools that went test optional before the USNWR rankings ever existed, and I meant no disrespect to Bates. Still, it would be presumptuous to conclude that all the schools that jumped on the test optional bandwagon did so for the same idealistic reasons. Actually, my daughter, who is a high-stats kid, is really interested in Bard–not for it’s test optional admission policy but for its great reputation and strong writing curriculum.
Back to the article: Deans of several colleges were interviewed for comment. The Dean of Illinois Wesleyan (ironically, one of the schools on my nephew’s list) came down firmly against test optional policies and argued that schools are using this for gamesmanship. My prediction is that this charge is not going to die out quickly.
What region is he looking at? Maybe if posters know where he wishes to be, then they can make suggestions. I agree with matching him not just by scores, but also to be cautious about matching him to that 3.8 in a college where students get a 3.8 taking advanced classes. The goal here is for him to be successful at college, and look for college where he fits best. He can keep the selective colleges on his list, but include others as well.
I also don’t want to dismiss his potential by stating this, but for students who are in financial need and are gapped financially, and have not had the advantages of a challenging high school- a community college is a way to make that transition to college. It isn’t a popular choice on CC, or the right fit for all students, but it can be an affordable option and a means to take some transitional classes- college algebra, reading, for students who can benefit from that preparation.
I don’t say this to undermine his capability, but from seeing students go off to college and then find they are not prepared. For a low income student, the consequences of this can find them returning home to work and pay off loans. Repeating classes at a 4 year college can be costly. It’s hard to predict readiness sometimes, but any low scores make me consider erring on the side of caution. He can still apply where he wants, but have this as an option along with the others.
@Hanna: I didn’t read your last post before I submitted. Thanks for coming to the discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I didn’t think I got an answer because I was looking for a quantifiable effect of the ACT to schools in a specific category. Your statement that he might get in is true but not very helpful. Let me say my concern in a different way: I don’t want him to play the lottery–I want him to have some options. He’s my nephew!
The dilemma is that the colleges that meet full need also tend to be the most selective- with very low admissions rates. There are also test optional colleges, but the ones that would not be as highly selective tend to not meet full need. The student who has lower test scores looking at test optional colleges has fewer choices.
Nobody wants to see a student in a lottery situation, and I don’t think it was Hana’s intention when she posted her answer as it is an option to consider in addition to others. Some families do want to apply even if the chances are not high. This is why it is OK to have some “reach” schools on your list- it is possible, but too risky to only apply to them. Every student needs to have other options as well.
As to colleges that are not as highly academically ranked- those that would take a student with an ACT score of 20, I would look at them individually. Some of them offer merit aid to high achieving students, and have honors programs, so it isn’t necessarily a poor fit. A small college like this may be more nurturing to students and invested in their learning.
Still, the finances are a concern, and a reality that needs to be factored in as well. I have known of students who have started at a CC and who have gone on successfully to four year colleges which is why I suggested it as one- not the only- but one of the options to consider.
@Pennylane: I missed your post with my last, too. Yes, I’ve also considered the CC route. Thanks for your info about gapping and less selective colleges. As I said in an earlier thread, I don’t have experience with the less selective LAC’s, and I had no idea that this was an issue. I took your suggestion and found a couple of schools that claim to meet full need but aren’t highly selective. You’re right–they are few and far between–but I now have two to add to the list. Thanks!
I’m okay with some reaches. I just don’t want to see him apply to a whole slough of schools he’s unlikely to get into.
I am glad you found some options. Another consideration- is that it may open more doors as after two years of credits, many colleges do not ask for SAT/ACT scores. This could make some more affordable schools ( in state, full need colleges) possible if he has a good academic record.
If he’s a strong student at his HS, he can attend a 4-year college - if he tends to be swayed by less driven classmates, a CC wouldn’t be a good choice, especially in rural MN where they’re more vocational schools than transfer schools (the branches such as Duluth and Morris are not toooo selective and Crookston is basically open-enrollment; Morris would likely be an excellent choice for him BTW. The Minnesota and Wisconsin State schools like Eau Claire or St Cloud are also good fallback options.)
Look into St John’s, Gustavus Adolphus, Beloit, Luther, Concordia-Moorhead, Augustana, Hamline, St Thomas, Lake Forest, Earlham, Drake, Wartburg, Bradley, Cornell College, . Run the NPCs.
Cast a wide net: what about Carroll of Montana, College of Idaho, Guilford, Hendrix, Eckerd, UNC-Asheville, Lebanon Valley, Lycoming, Elmira, Washington&Jefferson, Ursinus, Elizabethtown, Juniata, Susquehanna, Drew, Wheaton MA…?
He’d get a “geographical diversity” boost at these.
OP, a word of caution about posting here…this site leans heavily toward the very smart kids and parents of those kids. So the tendency is to overact to scores under 30 as being bad. 20 is not a high score, but the national average is 21, so it is not really that low.
I grew up in SD about 10 miles from MN in a small rural area, so I have a good feel for your situation. The are some good suggestions in the post above, and I would add that the state schools in SD have reciprocity with Minnesota. There are some good state options there. Depending upon what type of ministry, you also have Lutheran: Augustana (Sioux Falls); Baptist: University of Sioux Falls; Catholic: Presentation College (Aberdeen); and others. There are schools there in much smaller cities than most people here would even consider a city.
No need to go test-optional. The road will be a bit harder on the lower end of the scale, but given all of his other accomplishments, he will find a good school eager to have him.
^Great suggestions for colleges-
I tend to err on the side of financial caution in the face of financial need, and so, colleges close to home can be a savings in terms of travel costs.
CC is not a popular choice on this forum, but they can be an affordable option and a good way for some students to transition to college, so I do consider them. However, as in any suggestion, fit is an individual consideration.
@Torveaux This is terrible advice. The first school you mentioned in Sioux Falls has an average ACT of 26, which is the 83rd percentile. This student’s is the 49th. I would say the probability of this student getting accepted is about zero.
The way you say “no need to go test optional” makes it sound like there is some virtue to submitting this score or to standardized tests in general.
Why would anyone choose a harder road when they don’t have to?
The student needs to cast a wide net.
Test optional universities are one possibility and will certainly open selective choices that wouldn’t be available if scores were required.
However, Upper Midwest colleges admit almost all students who can do the work, and with a 3.8 this student can.
For instance, most of the colleges cited admit 65-80% applicants. 1/3 students admitted to Augustana had a score below 24.
Both types of applications are needed since there’s such a discrepancy between test scores and grades.
@Pennylane: He’s looking at schools in the midwest.
@MYOS1634: Most of the colleges you mentioned have 25-75% composites well above my nephew’s 20. That reality was what prompted the post in the first place. I think my original question could be rephrased to include your comment about acceptance rates. At colleges that accept 60-80 percent of applicants, does one treat the 25-75% rate the same way one would treat them with selective colleges. (I.e.–shoot for colleges where your score is at the top of the range and consider anything below that a reach).
Last night, I ran the NPC for several of nephew’s choices, including one of the test optional colleges. For the test optional, I could either enter an ACT number or omit it. The NPC spit out an acceptable amount of financial aid for either option. So, if the NPC is accurate, going test optional at that particular institution didn’t seem to have much impact on aid. I think it was a difference of about $1000. That school is now highlighted, bolded, and circled in red on the list.
@Collegemom3717: The SAT is a harder choice, logistically, for a student out in rural MN. There’s still some midwestern residual bias in favor of the ACT and, while the state requires juniors to take the ACT in the spring of their junior year–at the school–there’s no such requirement for the SAT. Nephew would have to make a two-hour drive just to find a testing site. That would be okay, I guess, except that it means either getting up in early hours (since testing starts at 7:00 a.m.) or arranging to stay with a relative (me) who lives near testing sites.I suggested to his mom that he take a math or chemistry SAT II to bolster his academics, but that suggestion didn’t fly too well–he was busy with golf, etc., etc. this past spring, when the team went to state. Remember, that their community is not the usual CC crowd–affluent suburban, well-informed, overly-anxious, college-choice focused. Folks out in greater MN tend to do what everyone else does. As a test prep tutor, I think the ACT is far easier to coach. The English is incredibly circumscribed and predictable, and the math doesn’t throw many surprises. I’m sure the sentence completion vocab would throw my nephew if he took the old SAT, and the math section is trickier than the ACT’s. If he went with the new SAT, that would be even more of a testing wildcard. So, SAT has been rejected as not likely to yield a higher score and logistically undesirable.
Yes, essentially I’m saying that if he can do the work he’ll get in, not at all of course, but at several colleges (especially the rural ones) if the college has 65-80%admission rates. However costs may vary greatlyvs so run NPCs since admission may not mean affordable.
Morris is an exception because they tend to have high-caliber students and can afford to b pickier.