<p>For Student # 90 (91), an unweighted GPA of 3.5 isn’t particularly revealing, because UC admissions is based on UCGPA, “In calculating the GPA, the student cannot include courses taken in the freshman year. Only “a-g” courses taken in the sophomore and junior years are used for the preliminary GPA.”, [University</a> of California - Calculating GPA](<a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/counselors/q-and-a/calculating-gpa/index.html#4]University”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/counselors/q-and-a/calculating-gpa/index.html#4) . So it is possible that the student could have aced UCGPA, but have a lower overall unweighted GPA.</p>
<p>In addition referring back to message # 103, where about 32 % of seniors (2007-2011) at Harvard-Westlake matriculated to the sample of 13 universities and 5 LAC’s. It is apparent that in general, they don’t need as high SAT I scores as those from non-magnet CA publics.</p>
<p>For the class of 2012 at H-W, there are 37 NMSF for a graduating class of about 280, which is about 13 % of seniors, [School</a> Profile](<a href=“http://www.hw.com/abouthw/tabid/2031/Default.aspx]School”>HW at a Glance) . Now that the NMSF cutoff in CA, is in the neighborhood of the average SAT I scores at the sample of 13 universities and 5 LAC’s, which suggests that about [(32- 13)/ 32]= 59 % of those matriculated from H-W, would have below-average SAT I scores as compared to the entire pool of admitted students, if we were to assume that the percentages of NMSF are similar over the years and most H-W seniors have taken PSAT, which didn’t sway too far from their SAT I scores. Then either that H-W has admitted many hooked candidates or the counselors have done a terrific job in advocating their seniors. Probably both. :-)</p>
<p>You can’t equate PSAT and SAT scores. I know it’s intuitive to, but at the schools similar to H-W that I’ve worked at, kids didn’t prepare for the PSAT in general where they very much did so for the SAT. Simply, these students are not interested in schools that reward being a NMSF.</p>
<p>My own youngest did 211 on the PSAT and 2380 on the SAT. Like many of her classmates she was incredibly busy junior year and just went in and took the test cold. Ivies don’t care about NMSF contrary to popular belief.</p>
<p>If anyone at H-W had lower than average scores for the schools they got into they were athletes, legacies or URMs. They do have plenty of all 3. But for an unhooked candidate, top schools take kids above the 75th percentile at top preps. They expect a lot from those who have been given a lot.</p>
<p>You can look at HW school profile and see their SATs are around 700 per section. For a while I was on disability and did a signifcant amount of SAT tutoring for a now defunct outfit called Ivy West. I think they may have had a branch at HW. Seriously, I think the book The Gatekeepers has a lot of stuff about HW in it.</p>
<p>The comparison of PVPHS to HW is simply a poor one and shouldn’t be done. HW is simply one of the top schools in the country if judged by college admissions standards. Bizarre extractions of PSAT scores to conclude otherwise are misleading. HW students are remarkably motivated, and for the most part, will be highly qualified, which combined with well connected admissions officers and parents, is a killer combination for college admittance. DS declined to go there after being accepted b/c he didn’t see himself as up to the task of keeping up with such a driven student body.</p>
<p>““You can’t equate PSAT and SAT scores. I know it’s intuitive to, but at the schools similar to H-W that I’ve worked at, kids didn’t prepare for the PSAT in general where they very much did so for the SAT. Simply, these students are not interested in schools that reward being a NMSF.””</p>
<p>I didn’t equate PSAT with SAT I scores, but drew a semi-quantitative correlation with available data, since we don’t have Naviance for these schools. NMSF cutoff in CA is 221(0) for class of 2012.</p>
<p>Harvard-Westlake (Class of 2012)</p>
<p>SAT I= 2058 (152 points below NMSF cutoff in CA) is consistent with 37 NMSF for a graduating class of about 280, which is about 13 % of seniors, [School</a> Profile](<a href=“http://www.hw.com/abouthw/tabid/2031/Default.aspx]School”>HW at a Glance) .</p>
<p>Another example, Harker (Class of 2012)</p>
<p>SAT I= 2174 (36 points below NMSF cutoff in CA) is consistent with 59 NMSF for a graduating class of about 172, which is about 34 % of seniors, <a href=“Page Not Found”>http://www.harker.org/uploaded/main/pdfs/admission/ADM_HarkerProfile_FINAL_1112.pdf</a> .</p>
<p>As shown in the above, PSAT is a reasonable proxy for SAT I for these schools. Furthermore, there is incentive for these schools to encourage doing well in PSAT, as the numbers of NMSF are shown in the school profiles.</p>
<p>““If anyone at H-W had lower than average scores for the schools they got into they were athletes, legacies or URMs. They do have plenty of all 3…””</p>
<p>The above isn’t very different from my earlier message, other than I drew the suggestion from known data. :-)</p>
<p>"“The comparison of PVPHS to HW is simply a poor one and shouldn’t be done.”"</p>
<p>To each their own and not quite so for people who are selecting across the spectrum. I would like to know more about what I maybe paying for, whether it is a school district or tuition. :-)</p>
<p>I noticed the ONLY acceptance to Brown out of 27 or 28 applicants was a 2300+ and a 4.8+ Gpa</p>
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<p>Very few students prep for the PSAT. From what I’ve seen, kids prep when they’re searching for merit money–IF they know that doing well on the PSAT means NMF scholarship opportunities. Most kids simply don’t know that the PSAT is anything more than a general practice run. Though there are certainly kids at H-W who are in that merit-hunting demographic, there are plenty more from full-pay families that aren’t going to blink at paying full freight at any school in the country. That said, USC is a school that offers big rewards (half-tuition guaranteed) for being an NMF, and lots of H-W students go to USC. There are certainly families there that would be glad to have that NM status, allowing them to attend USC for about the cost of going to Berkeley or UCLA. </p>
<p>The entire comparison between high schools seems rather silly to me for very pragmatic reasons. It’s unlikely that a high school student is going to make a lengthy daily commute from Rancho Palos Verde up to H-W. It’s even less likely that someone would commute from Irvine to H-W. Parents often choose to move to places like Rancho Palos Verde and Irvine because of the strong school systems. The public schools there have to take your kid, no matter what. Not so schools like H-W or Harker or other elite high schools. There may be families that move (or have their child live independently) in order to attend these schools, but it’s far more likely that parents just look for the best available school in their immediate commuting area.</p>
<p>Parents who are shocked at the cost of sending kids to top independent prep schools and rant because these schools may give their students an admissions advantage at top elite colleges don’t seem to recognize this cost/value calculation is the same one many ccers make when applying to colleges, no? Those who choose private will pay about $250K for four years of undergrad. Presumably, we do so with the hope our student’s education will be worth the expense and that they may have a leg up in career and grad school goals. The same thing–a highest quality education among motivated talented peers for a cost. </p>
<p>I can join the complaint that it shouldn’t have to be so. That only the very rich (or very poor–thanks to financial aid) can afford to send kids to these highly desirable schools. That even then, top privates are selective, and choose top test-takers, athletes, URMs, offspring of celebs, etc. To be a regular hard working smart non-URM kid gets about as much cred in high school admissions as in ivy admissions.</p>
<p>But how have we come to accept that private university educations cost $58K a year but be horrified at the cost for top 20 private high schools? I mean, aside from our natural horror at how expensive it is to educate our children in private institutions.</p>
<p>And I’ll add to that…many parents who have spent the big dollars to send kids to both top elementary and high schools and colleges report that if they could only afford one they would choose spending the money for schools in earlier years in hindsight. Surveys of these parents show that their kids became truly engaged in learning earlier, gained a level of confidence that served them well in college and beyond, and got a basic overall foundation they feel serve their children long term.</p>
<p>I’ve often thought about this for my future grandchildren. Where would I choose to contribute given limited funds? I’ve decided it would be great private education early. Given a strong foundation, any kid can thrive at a state flagship.</p>
<p>^And many would not. My kids have benefited so much from their public school education. They’ve had friends from all walks of life - from every economic level and ethnic background. We chose a “good enough” school district where there is a critical mass of bright achieving students, but there is also lots of diversity. They were able to attend universities that were tops in the fields they are/were studying (comp sci for my oldest, and international relations for the youngest). NY has no flagship and none of the universities is tops in either subject. In addition, there are even fewer NY public choices if you want a university in an urban area.</p>
<p>I think any kid who can get a good education in a diverse setting is extremely lucky. Many prep schools offer this too. The school I last worked at had kids from dozens of countries and nearly every state. With about 35% on aid, all socioeconomic groups were well represented as were ethnic groups.</p>
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<p>I absolutely agree with this. It is my great regret that we sent our D to the local elementary school rather than the one private in our area. She got the full multicultural experience and had many friends of every race and socioeconomic background. Then in middle school they self-segregated, like oil and water. She still has friends of every socioeconomic background, but not the same kids she played with in elementary school. She sailed through elementary school without ever being challenged or learning good study habits. She came home every day with colorful stories of the class clown’s latest escapades and playground fights. More than one of her teachers proclaimed, “I’m not good at math” or “math scares me”. As parents we share equal blame with the school district. We could have had more oversight and held her to a higher standard. Fortunately she got her act together after 8th grade, but it was a tough 2 years in middle school.</p>
<p>What is the “Tufts Syndrome?”</p>
<p>“Tufts Syndrome” is the idea that certain schools will reject or waitlist highly qualified applicants if they believe that the applicants will not attend if admitted–i.e., because they are likely to get into a more selective school and matriculate there. This is supposedly done to protect yield, and perhaps because schools don’t like to be used as backups. There is a Tufts admissions person who has posted repeatedly (persuasively, in my opinion) that Tufts does not do this. When I have looked at the Naviance scattergrams for my kids’ school, there are some schools which do seem to waitlist super-qualified kids while accepting some who are less qualified (not Tufts, though). It’s impossible to know why this is though–it may also be that some schools really focus on expressed interest.</p>
<p>Tufts syndrome is a theory that schools will reject highly qualified applicants in the assumption that these students have a low probability of enrolling at the school. The rationale is that schools are so influenced by US News and World report rankings that they will take steps to ensure they receive high rankings for selectivity and yield. Applicants to Tufts were apparently the first to notice this phenomenon.</p>
<p>Tufts – wow. I had no idea! I’ve learned a lot from this thread.</p>
<p>Something I haven’t seen mentioned is the importance (or not) of class rank. My son attends a Catholic high school, generally regarded as excellent. He is ranked 20th in his class. If he attended our local high school, he’d be in the top 5%. To many colleges, that matters. One college to which S applied has a system of awarding financial aid, printed right there on the web site. If you have this GPA, this SAT or ACT, AND rank in the top 10% of your class, you automatically qualify for this level of merit aid off tuition. With the same GPA and SAT, but ranking in the top 25% of your senior class (the chart goes from top 10 to top 20), you only get THIS amount of merit aid. S would have been worth a lot more at the local ho-hum high school.</p>
<p>Sorry – accidentally posted before finished --</p>
<p>My point is – if your kid goes to an elite private high school where fully half the kids are 4.5 GPA and 2100 SATs…your kid might be in “only” the top 50% of his senior class. Won’t that hurt in terms of merit aid? Or even getting accepted?</p>
<p>Also – we have a good friend who works at an Ivy, has been there 19 years now. Not in admissions; he’s in their budget office. But he hears/knows things. He told us that his Ivy, in pursuit of diversity, tries very hard not to accept more than one kid per year from any one high school. It’s a dance. What if they accept a certain kid, and he chooses to go to a different school, but another equally qualified kid is rejected but would have gone there in a heartbeat? You just never know. So if your kid goes to a high school where 20 qualified kids apply to the same Ivy…some might be rejected simply because the Ivy already accepted several others from that same high school and enough is enough.</p>
<p>If all you cared about was admissions to the most selective colleges, it may be preferable to be the best possible student in the worst possible high school.</p>
<p>But you might not get a good high school education, you might not be as well prepared for the college that you get in, you might get lousy advising, you might fall in with bad companions and not be the best student after all, etc.</p>