"Admissions Revolution"

<p>

</p>

<p>It is a lot more than an exercise in futility. Those conferences “behind closed-doors” are EXACTLY what is wrong with the Thacker’s ideas. One end of the table, a self-anointed guru who professes to know what is best for parents and students, and on the the other hand, a dozen of school reps sent to deliver the usual lip service … Yes, that is all we need to start enjoying clear walls of transparency. As much as we need this abject kowtowing to the gatekeepers!</p>

<p>Thanks Bluebayou for bringing this article to my attention. Van Bus Kirk’s important and well-aimed shots at Thacker and the EC’s “thinktank” methods are right on the money but, at the same time, it is important to note that he is not launching a diatribe against either Thacker or admissions reform. He clearly points out that the so-called “admissions frenzy” is a complex cultural phenomenon attributable to all parties involved in the process - parents, students, the media, and, of course, and not at all least, the colleges themselves. In fact, on this score Van Bus Kirk recognizes the need to speak out and push for reform on all of these levels:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Watching recent events unfold, it is telling just how much (even “misguided”) reformers can make a difference - now just how much of a difference remains to be seen because the elements that make up the frenzy are complex and the American system of higher education thrives on both on the institutional “bottom line” and the lack of a standardized model of admissions - indeed, this latter point used to be hailed as a positive attribute enhancing the rich heterogeneity of paths to access that education. Now, educating families and students is an important part of any attempt to stop the “admissions frenzy”. Van Bus Kirk is quite eloquent on this point:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Closed doors or open doors, Van Bus Kirk just doesn’t believe that reform from “the top down” is the way to go and this is largely true because (and I think most of us really do know this) “that in light of institutional priorities, the admission process is not a meritocracy.”</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Beyond the ideas of a self-interested reformer, I am not sure I understand the types of reforms that make sense. </p>

<p>There seems to be a general consensus that there should be a more realistic attitude towards rankings and the elite colleges. That is not going to happen. The elite schools can choose the best students. Every parent of a teenager knows the importance of peer pressure and wants to see their kids in an enironment with the best students. The elite schools attract strong faculty. Then there is all of that endowment money. Some of it actually is used to improve education and some of it funds FA and often makes the elite school cost of attendance cheaper than the lesser alternatives.</p>

<p>We would all like transparency in the admissions process. That is not going to happen either. We already know that disregarding issues of tuition revenue, colleges want to select the best students, those with a strong track record, who will work hard and will succeed while in college and will use their education to succeed in life. We know they look at SATs, gpa, class rank and the difficulty of courses taken. We also know that they want something more. They look for maturity, passionate interests, determination. They also look for diversity and unique individuals. No way are the adcoms interested in publishing their admission criteria. There are already enough students and parents trying to game the system. I would also be willing to bet that there is actually very little in the way of a system. My guess is admissions are more likely to be highly subjective.</p>

<p>We would like to see transparency in how colleges make financial decisions. That is not going to happen either. Colleges want to recruit and attract applicants and not discourage them with concerns about FA.</p>

<p>Rather than worry about the admissions “frenzy” maybe we should be more concerned about how we raise our kids and what are kids do with their time in school and outside of school. I would rather know what we can do to foster their self-reliance, self-confidence, and zest for learning and life.</p>

<p>aris:</p>

<p>since I have been part of the “diatribe” against Thacker, I’ll try to recant. My prior comments were not meant to be personal against him or the EC, but were more amazement that anyone as smart as he is can be so naive to think that he could influence a change process, when Van Bus Kirk clearly opines it is not in the adcoms vested interested to do so. As mini points out, Adcoms are well paid professionals who do a great job for thier institutions.</p>

<p>OTOH, Thacker can take some credit in H & P changing their ED policies. Now, let’s see how fast either of them drop the SAT-ACT requirement. </p>

<p>btw: notice where Van Bus Kirk now works – he failed to call the test prep companies to task. :rolleyes:</p>

<p>The take-home message I got from the article is that it’s really up to parents to stop the feeding frenzy. I agree.</p>

<p>I started a thread on the NACAC’s move to reform early admission practices, but here are some further comments worth noting from the Chicago Tribune - obviously this is still a debate (and who knows, maybe subject to further reform down the road) since it does seem that not everyone is on board with this decision:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>It is not at all unexpected that the media will mention Thacker and the EC in all of this because he (among others) has been quite outspoken on this subject:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>No matter what we all think of Thacker, I think we have to agree that right now he must be feeling pretty chipper about all of this. Since the Van Buskirk article piqued my curiosity, I took a look at the EC site - the “generous” Mellon funds have come in and Thacker now has a “staff”. He even hired a secretary to update all the goings on at the EC and edad might like to know that she is a SUNY Bing alum.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0610080404oct08,1,2131576.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true[/url]”>http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0610080404oct08,1,2131576.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Of those 540 applicants Glenbrook North High School saw this year I bet a significant amount of them are to rolling admissions state schools such as UIllinois and Michigan. Go through the threads on CC and you will see that is the advice given by many parents and other students. Get one acceptance using rolling admissions to take the pressure off the student. They know that they will be going somewhere. If it is your state flagship university it can often be for free if your stats are good enough.</p>

<p>I think the explosion is applications is really because the process is so uncertain, not just from the acceptance perspective. I see a lot of advice, and it is appropriate given the expense associated with college, to apply to a a few safety schools and to a few financial safety schools. What used to be 4-6 apps is now 9-12+. </p>

<p>Those additional applications add to the uncertainty on the other side of the equation also. The schools have a difficult time projecting yield and are subject to overenrollment.</p>

<p>An earlier poster said a student got a 1600 by taking the test 11 times and eventually got two 800s…Didn’t this kid have anything better to do on a Saturday morning? My kids had trouble finding a free day to take the test twice. Plus the SAT IIs and maybe the ACT.</p>

<p>“My kids had trouble finding a free day to take the test twice. Plus the SAT IIs and maybe the ACT.”</p>

<p>Amen, mommusic. And you “forgot” the time involved to register & minimally prep or refresh for those tests, even at home. It barely happened for D#1, an organized sort. I dread the experience for D#2, the scattered sort. Between our H.S.'s college-level courseload, + commuting, + regional & national level e.c.'s, + school activities, D#2 would prefer to hang out occasionally with old friends from now-different schools on the rare true breaks she does have. (Post-midterms, post-finals, etc.)</p>

<p>Edad wrote:
“I would also be willing to bet that there is actually very little in the way of a system.”
Precisely. What I saw in my recent interview experience (see my post on the recent Opinions on The Chosen thread) is that the students drive the standard when it comes not to the initial series of considerations, but the final ones. Among the secondary & tertiary pools, the students who have the maximum achievement in a whole variety of areas will be the ones who in a sense determine their own admission. It’s simply a matter of what is available to that college among the competition who shows up.</p>

<p>As I’ve said elsewhere, any parent or student who regularly engages in a competitive activity understands this implicitly. It matters not how good you are within your local arena, how many times you’ve “won” previously. When a new mix of competition occurs, you have no control over what your competitors have done, first of all, and no control over how the “judges” will compare you, second of all.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Of course, what is important to him came in: money! He must also be pretty chipper about getting asked to comment on a position that was nothing but an afterthought at the EC. Buried in a sea of ranting about commercialism and rankings, you’d need a powerful microscope to find EC’s and Thacker’s “advocating” of the need to improve early admission policies before Harvard brought it to the forefront.</p>

<p>As I said before, I hope he uses his new-found riches to find the time to express HIS ideas more clearly, PRESENT a black-on-white platform on HIS website for everyone to read, and drop the mad-dog tire biting. Right now, the EC site is still a sea of nothingness.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Epiphany, I found myself saying “Amen” to both your and musicmom’s posts - great points and right on the mark.</p>

<p>Xiggi- let’s see what the guy does with his fancy new duds - but I certainly do agree that the EC site could use a make-over.</p>

<p>Yes, Asteriskea, let’s see what happens in the next weeks and months. </p>

<p>If positive changes do occur, I’d become a happy supporter in a heartbeat, and as vociferous and vocal as I am in my disapproval.</p>

<p>Asteriskea:</p>

<p>“This particular practice is institutionally self-serving. It says earlier is better. It does not serve in any way, shape or form the public interest of nurturing kids’ imagination, curiosity, a good relationship with education,” said Thacker, executive director of the non-profit group Education Conservancy."</p>

<p>While I definitely understand and agree with his first sentence, I’m sure too dense to understand the latter sentence. The girl discussed in the C-Tribune just wanted to be accepted to her first choice college and form her own ‘good relationship with education’. How can Thacker claim that attending her first choice college is detrimental to ‘nurturing’ her ‘imagination.’ </p>

<p>It seems to me that Lloyd is being contradictory – on one hand, he (rightfully) decries the commercialization of college admissions, but on the other he would deny this girl early acceptance and force her to submit multiple applications; thus, ensuring an increase in the commercialization of admissions. Why? </p>

<p>Where is the evidence to support his hypotheses? Where is the evidence to show that early accepted seniors go into brain-dead pod people? </p>

<p>btw: HS counselors are not disinterested parties…since many of them don’t start work until after Labor Day, they have a personal, vested interest to move app deadlines back, and not earlier.</p>

<p>Blue Bayou, from your remarks I see that you agree with my previous post that the issue of early decision is a contentious one and still open to debate. </p>

<p>On the subject of early, early admissions, look back to post #111 and you will see that the Inside Higher Ed piece quoted addressed the problems inherent in potential abuse of ED. That a significant number of NACAC members (professional counselors and educators, who do, indeed, do a great job for their respective institutions) aimed to stop a budding trend in which a proliferation of colleges could compete to push back deadline dates to “super early dates” is a significant step toward cooperation and reform. As far as I can figure this all out, many high schools convene in late August these days, and there do exist quite a few guidance counselors who diligently prepare juniors with fact sheets, time lines, and myriad instructions of “what to do over the summer” to be in a position to make strong ED/EA and RD application choices. Others do not and seniors wade through all the paper work etc. largely left to their own devices. At this point, I do not honestly believe that their is any party involved in college admissions that does not have some kind of vested interest - and that includes parents and students. </p>

<p>In regard to ED/EA, there does not seem to be any consensus, even among the ranks of EC supporters, as to which route is best - even among those who are quite outspoken about admission reform and, may I add, more eloquent than Mr. Thacker. I now see that that there is a thread on Bruce Poch and Pomona:</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=243864&highlight=Pomona[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=243864&highlight=Pomona&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Your comments on the issue of multiple apps., commercialism, and admission angst bring to mind a conversation I had the other day with a friend of mine (btw, she is not a devotee of CC, so the conversation was all the more interesting and wierd). She blithely told me that her D, a senior, is currently preparing 3 EA and 1 non-binding ED applications and, apart from that, she listed at least 6 other schools that they hadn’t quite decided about yet for RD. I politely inquired which school her D preferred and was told that “she changes her mind all the time, one day it is school “X” and the next day “Y”. I get the same thing from her when I ask her to decide what she wants for dinner -one minute it is chicken and the next fish”. I wish I were making this up. I don’t know how typical this is but that is quite a number of multiple apps. right there and we were talking about ED/EA!</p>

<p>I found the following piece of advice on Notre Dame U.'s web site: </p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“https://admissions.nd.edu/und/faq.cfm#13[/url]”>https://admissions.nd.edu/und/faq.cfm#13&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>asterikea,</p>

<p>The response from your friend is actually quite typical of students. It is one of the reasons I do not like the concept of ED where the concept of EA and to a limited degree SCEA is okay with me.</p>

<p>Overall, I like EA because a student can apply early and get an answer early. If it is positive it reduces the stress on the students between January 1 and April 1. At least they know they are going somewhere next year.</p>

<p>The ND admissions advice is good advice. It is why I think junior year is the most stressful because in order to apply early action you need to have your testing in order by the end of June your junior year.</p>

<p>Eagle, thanks for your response - I was wondering just how common it is for students to submit so many early apps. The more I mull the notion of early admission reform over, however, the more I am impressed by the cross-purposes and vested interests at play. I do agree that the advice given on the Notre Dame site is good advice (which is why I posted it) and certainly second your observation that junior year is the most important and stressful vis-a-vis the college admission process but I think this is the case early admissions notwithstanding. (In my case, my junior is finally “kicking in” and -for the time being, anyway - taking both the stress and the challenge in stride, so I can’t say that I think this is altogether a negative - like it or not, it is built into the system. It is also an integral part of the “growing up” process necessary to prepare for the college experience.) I was struck by Notre Dame’s message that EA should not be the chosen path “merely” because ND was a “first choice” - well, in the case of my friend’s D, it certainly appears that ND (and she is applying EA to ND which is why I looked up the site) is not her first choice - in fact she is undecided as, I would expect, are a majority of seniors who are currently preparing apps and juniors thinking about preparing apps. Doesn’t this highlights just how “EA” is a vastly different animal from binding ED and, of course, even from SCEA? I, parent, find myself continually confused with all the ins and outs, dos and don’ts, and rights and wrongs connected with early admissions - and I am all the more confused and confounded when these programs are used to “lock in” a seat “merely” because the competition is feared to be rife and “admissions is all a crapshoot anyway”. As, another poster mentions on the MIT anti-stress thread, the admissions frenzy, especially in the NY, NJ, and CT. area is definitely waxing and filitering “down” to include an impressively wide number of excellent IHEs. When it comes to the question of admissions reform and ED, I think it is necessary to rethink the fundamentals - is it a means for applicants to demonstrate mature interest in a college because it is a true first choice, or is a means to push back the deadline date in order to allay stress for that particular student? </p>

<p>For these reasons, I can see the merit of Bruce Poch and Pomona’s stance on the issue of single choice, binding ED:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Quite obviously, “admissions policies have consequences for students, for society, and for the functionality of the college or university that enacts them.”</p>

<p>

<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2006/10/12/delbanco[/url]”>http://www.insidehighered.com/views/2006/10/12/delbanco&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Article in the Cornell Daily Sun about dreaded senoritis and new steps to attempt to curb it, if not “cure” it.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.cornellsun.com/node/18892[/url]”>http://www.cornellsun.com/node/18892&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Another good media article with the same message not to slack off and another word to the wise - don’t try to dupe ad coms. I didn’t know that “Underwater Basket Weaving” was still being offered …</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/15732167.htm[/url]”>http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/15732167.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The debate and discussion over early decision continue - this USA today article opens with Fitzsimmons’ concerns as he prepares “to conduct Harvard’s last review of early-admission applicants (the deadline is Nov. 1), he worries that the admissions “rat race” is destroying “the quality of the social fabric” in high schools. “It creates a pressure cooker,” he says. And it’s one reason Harvard is ending its early deadline.” </p>

<p>Interesting that the University of Illinois flagship public Urbana-Champagne is giving up rolling admissions in favor of an early decision program.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.oar.uiuc.edu/future/freshmen/dates.html[/url]”>http://www.oar.uiuc.edu/future/freshmen/dates.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-10-24-tuition-dcover_x.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-10-24-tuition-dcover_x.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I am sure that most of share Education Secretary Margaret Spellings’s sentiments when she says she wants the college search and application process to be “less confusing and frustrating”. With the University of Illinois dropping rolling admissions in favor of an early plan and citing the same arguments of stress, anxiety and reform to justify and back up this shift in admissions policy, I am not sure just how this serves what should be one of the major objectives of admissions reform. One thing is for sure, as things stand at present, the admissions game doesn’t seem to me to be either less confusing or less frustrating.</p>