<p>I am learning that I am not a big fan of the AP process. I have a daughter taking an AP History class, and the teacher is just about killing the kids to get them prepared for the AP test. Traditionally, about 80% of her students pass the test, but I’m not sure it is worth the effort. She works harder in this class than all others combined (only a slight exaggeration), and it will be her first B in HS. So she may get to bypass a class in college, but at what cost to her GPA and scholarship opportunities?</p>
<p>Tuition Dad, I understand your concern about a B hurting gpa/scholarship opportunities. However, the truth is that she is probably learning far more in this class in which she got a B than she has in other classes in which she got an A. We tend to forget that the whole point of education is learning! We worry so much about our kids getting into the right school & getting the big scholarship that we lose sight of the whole point of what our kids are supposed to be getting out of school. If your daughter is taking an AP class that actually challenges her like a good college class would challenge her, then she is that much more prepared for college. I would guess she has never been so challenged before … and now she will be better prepared for what lies ahead. My daughter EARNED her first B in the first semester of AP Chem. What did she learn from this? Let’s see … that she isn’t perfect; that college is tough; that if she makes some adjustments in her study habits, she can pull her grade up to an A (which she did 2nd semester); that she isn’t especially fond of chemistry (important in determining possible career paths); that it’s actually okay to get a B if you’ve done the best you knew how to do at the time. Priceless! Yes, it knocked her from val status (GPA still high enough for school, but no B’s are allowed for val). Oh, well. That is just not the most important thing.</p>
<p>Getting straight A grades in a wimpy high school curriculum can be worse for college admission than getting the occasional B in a tough curriculum. Prep school students hardly ever graduate with straight A averages, but they fare well in college admission because their course transcripts are credible.</p>
<p>The lack of rigor in high school AP classes does not surprise me. My D took quite a few AP classes and the corresponding CB AP exams. A couple of times she came close to scoring 4, but no dice, every score she got was level 3. My D got A’s in all of these classes and the HS considers itself to be first rate and very competitive. Whether it is called AP, enrichment, honors, or whatever, the high schools typically fall short of providing a college-level course.</p>
<p>^^It’s reasons like this that I vehemently disagree with people (and the adcoms) who say, “Oh, the AP scores don’t really matter”. I think that AP scores matter alot for kids like me, who go to unremarkable public high schools and don’t get the automatic prestigious prep school/magnet school/elite suburban public school waiver on their grades (I’m not saying that it is not deserved, in many cases, although I would argue that the burden of a large, impersonal school does count for something as well…but I digress). In cases like my own (and even more extreme than my own) a high AP score is validation that the class and grade are worthwhile. Or at least that my command of the material is good (not every good AP score corresponds to a good class, unfortunately).</p>
<p>Oakland mom- My son also got 5’s on AP Calc and Physics exams but elected to take the Honors sequences in both freshman year at the good flagship public U- I think he’ll lose the college credits from those AP courses, but who cares. His Honors calculus 3 semester series will also give him the 4th math course and not allow him to take a theoretical advanced calculus class. He’ll be ahead of anyone opting to do 2nd semester regular calc as an incoming freshman due to the theory, and have the 4 courses by the same time. By having AP calc he could start the calc based physics, even though he theoretically was supposed to be taking 2nd semester calc- he did well in both, he got to start courses in his major earlier than without HS AP classes. Even though AP calculus may be well taught at his HS students often repeat first semester calculus, even at the other state U’s.</p>
<p>wis75, my son had taken multivariable calculus and linear algebra & differential equations plus another math course at UC Berkeley as a high school senior, grades in all those classes: A or A+. Yet as a freshman in a different college he was required to start over in Math 1a(calculus), this term he’s taking linear algebra as its required. So unlike you’re son who will be ahead, my son should have been ahead but instead is required to take the freshman math courses. He doesn’t seem to mind. I think it may be one of the first times he’s just another guy who is good a math. I on the other hand am still wondering about the $3000 spent so he could take those math classes at UCB & why did he bother to take the ap tests (I guess he did get to use it…the ap score must of let him pass out of calculus at UCB…but not out of calculus where he is now). Maybe what I really don’t get is calculus - isn’t basic calculus, basic calculus? Keep in mind this is coming from a mom with an EFC of 0. So that $3000 was a big deal. & I think too, as a mom who struggled to find schools that would challenge my son and didn’t really succeed until high school when we found the right outside activities that brought him challenges, I worry he’ll be bored having to repeat courses he’s taken already. Luckily I think his other courses give him the challenges he thrives on (Chemistry, Physics & a Computer Science course, plus humanities).</p>
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<p>Most colleges with strong math departments have multiple calculus courses, some much more theoretically oriented than others. My son has taken beginning (AP calculus BC) calculus, is now taking linear algebra, and will take multivariable calculus next school year. I expect him to take AT LEAST one more course also labeled “multivariable calculus and linear algebra,” but I don’t expect the next course to be a complete repeat of what he has taken or will soon take. </p>
<p>An eminent psychologist who is a designer of one kind of IQ test says, “The half-life of knowledge is one year.” There isn’t complete loss in doing somewhat by way of review in any course that is your child’s favorite subject, as long as each course is well taught and the classmates provide a good social atmosphere of fellow learners.</p>
<p>I can add that chemistry and physics also have 3 intro course sequences at UW that can serve as prerequsites for other courses, plus ones that don’t. Pre-nursing students used to take a one semester chemistry course, I would help some of them in the dorm and could predict who would change their major based on that course. It’s too bad even UC Berkeley credits weren’t useful. I took calc 3 semesters, never knew which type it was, it was so long ago and who knows how they divided it up then.</p>
<p>Oaklandmom:</p>
<p>I don’t know about Caltech, but at Harvard there are many levels of calculus.<br>
Those who take the hardest levels (Math 25 and Math 55) typically have taken Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra before, and sometimes other math courses as well.</p>
<p>My concern about the CB’s auditing of AP courses is what it will do to non-traditional AP courses. My son is homeschooled, and he takes an online AP English (language and comp) class from a group called Pennsylvania Homeschoolers. It’s an excellent course. The instructor thoroughly critiques the students’ work, and they have the opportunity to interact concerning the reading material through a message board. They also discuss one another’s essays on the message board. I have heard from other parents that most of the students earn 4’s and 5’s on the AP exam. Although the classes could continue even if they were stripped of the AP designation, I wonder if the students would still be allowed to take the tests if they hadn’t taken an approved AP course.</p>
<p>you can self study for AP tests- taking the course is not required to take the test.</p>
<p>The College Board has made clear, in a policy statement teachers have seen, that the AP tests will always be available to students who </p>
<p>a) have self-studied </p>
<p>or </p>
<p>b) are homeschooled. </p>
<p>The AP audit process is strictly to make sure that a school’s statement that a course is an AP course is based on reasonable efforts to match the syllabus with the AP “Acorn book” syllabus, and that in the case of lab science courses there is some provision of a reasonable minimum of labs (which can be distance learning labs). It’s much less of a big deal than many teachers worry about the AP audit being. (I’m a subscriber to several AP teacher Electronic Discussion Groups as a homeschooling parent and member of a homeschooling support group that plans joint classes.) </p>
<p>Bottom line: Your kid, my kid, and every kid in the world is welcome to take AP tests to validate their learning. This is a huge advantage of the AP program over the IB program for independent learners.</p>
<p>I’ve found several statements in this thread (and the article) to be ridiculous. </p>
<p>I love how so many people are saying, “Oh, this AP class is such a joke - we read The Crucible, Animal Farm, and X novel that is clearly not advanced enough!” These books are the foundations of literature in this country. They are masterpieces. Many of them do not have advanced vocabularly and are easily understood, but the truth is, if students have not been exposed to the literature before the AP class, kudos to the teacher for requiring students to be familiar with the literature of our times. What constitutes an AP class isn’t /just/ the literature you read…it is how you approach it, and the standards the teacher sets for writing and learning about it. It is IMPERITIVE to be taught the essentials, the classics. Having that broad base of knowledge to draw from and understanding the state of literature of the 20th century is what will prepare students for the AP exam and college.</p>
<p>Last year we read The Crucible, and were given a reading list that included To Kill a Mockingbird and other novels the “regular” English class was reading…</p>
<p>Maybe it was because our teachers didn’t have their noses in the air that of a class of thirty, 25 recieved 5s on the AP exam.</p>
<p>groovinhard, I don’t think anyone here has “their noses in the air.” A college-level course should include books that would be read in a college class. If students have missed “classics” in their schooling, they could be assigned for outside reading. Few student will be exposed to “all of the classics” during their high school classics, so outside reading lists are very important for exposure to these novels. However, for in-class study, it is not an unreasonable expectation that the novels be those typically assigned in a college class if it is an AP class.</p>
<p>I do agree with you, however, that it IS most definitely “how you approach it, and the standards the teacher sets for reading and writing about it.” That is the key to the problem with the AP English class I complained about.</p>
<p>The reading lists in college include many of the same good books you may have read in high school. There are many levels in reading, discussing and writing. In the pre AP days I managed to never read the usual Shakespeare plays in my HS and college honors classes, but read Shakespeare at both places, strange to miss the commonly known plays “everyone” is forced to read, but it happens.</p>
<p>Boy at son’s HS got a 5 on the AP US History as a freshman before taking any HS US History, he was exempted from that course.</p>
<p>Some AP courses are not what they should be, not at a college reading/writing/material level, therefore students will consider them a joke, especially when the course may be easy but few can pass the AP exam.</p>
<p>Critics of the AP are greatly concerned about the growing number of AP students who never take the AP exam.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/24/AR2007032401028.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/24/AR2007032401028.html</a></p>
<p>tokenadult,</p>
<p>If a school offers an AP course, but a student try to self-study and take the AP test (because the school does not allow him to take the class). Do you know whether the school can refuse to let him take the test, or is the school is just acting as a testing center for the college board, and must allow the student to take the test as long as he pays the fee?</p>
<p>I think schools can refuse to provide testing for courses they don’t offer, but the College Board helps students find willing schools if the students can’t test at the nearest high school to where they live. Students in my homeschooling support group come from several different school districts to one high school that is very accommodating and will offer any test on request.</p>
<p>^^^
Thanks.</p>