<p>Yes, I think you’re right, Hunt. I wasn’t disagreeing with you.</p>
<p>It’s just that in some cases, things like transportation play a large role in determining which high school experience will be better. If you MUST take the bus home from the magnet every day because your family cannot provide other transportation if you want to stay for an EC, that could be a good reason to attend your neighborhood high school, where you could participate in any ECs you want.</p>
<p>Absolutely. This is why we didn’t consider the middle school magnets for our kids. The IB magnet was convenient, but we know others for whom it was a huge pain, and some who decided it just didn’t make sense. I don’t think somebody should make that kind of sacrifice just because some colleges might like it better.</p>
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<p>What if there is a huge gap between an unchallenging default school where most college-bound students take remedial courses once they get into college, and a super-hard magnet school for academic superstars, where a good but not academic superstar student would be overwhelmed?</p>
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<p>This is a very good question.</p>
<p>One possibility might be to go to the lesser school but augment its offerings with self-study or tutoring. For example, if the lesser school teaches an AP US History course that’s so inferior that most students get 1s or 2s on the AP test, the more ambitious student might want to spend extra time with AP US History preparation books or work with a tutor in the hope of getting a passing score on the test.</p>
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Yes and no. Yes, top colleges acknowledge the difference by accepting more students from those academically rigorous high schools, which means you need to be one of the top students in these schools to have a serious shot to the top colleges, whereas in an ordinary public high school you must be the top few and in some cases even a tipsy top student has a shaky chance to the tipsy top colleges since HYPSM admission just doesn’t happen that often in these schools. And no, you can’t get away with “mediocre” academic records even if it’s “mediocre” by your school’s standards. The peer group is so strong that you’d be easily miles away from being competitive in the top college admission race.</p>
<p>Some argue that higher top college matriculation rate in some elite high schools is due to students with hooks such as legacy, faculty kids, celebrity etc. Again, yes and no. Yes, the higher concentration of the students with such hooks does distort the matriculation stats somewhat. However, I don’t believe that takes away the chances of students without such hooks. First off, the race has become so intense that in many cases the hooked students have to be strong students in the first place. If you look at some of their profiles, you’d wonder if they’d get in anyway even without those hooks. Secondly, colleges do recognize and appreciate those who have made their way to the top of their class. Regardless their “hook status” they’d be seriously considered. While it’s true there’s a limit on how many students can be admitted to one particular college, there’s no set quota. The complication here is that one may not be admitted to one particular top college of his choice but chances are he may be to another college with similar selectivity. So in these schools in particular one shouldn’t bet on one but rather several colleges of “the same level”.</p>
<p>One intangible I haven’t noticed much that my kids most cherished from their private HS was the ability to be more themselves and be able to be more unguarded in their vocabulary and “nerd” interests, since they were more “among peers” than they had found themselves in public middle school. They made long term friendships which they further cultivated in college. </p>
<p>For our S who enjoyed getting by with the least effort that would give him the grades he wanted, being in a more competitive pool had him ratchet up his efforts and gave him more desirable options, as well as a place where he could self study comfortably. The private HS even had at least one course S took in AP CS where S was one of only two students! that would never have happened at the public school which offered very few APs and classes of about 30+. The instructors obvious love of learning was a welcome contrast for our kids to the suspicion with which it was greeted in public school.</p>
<p>Good question! And it is all so complicated and uncertain, isn’t it?</p>
<p>I think I will be glad when it is all over! Just today, daughter wants to drop out of super-academic school, and go straight into college classes offered locally, in order to get out of the dorm (no AC!). </p>
<p>Tomorrow, it will be some other plan. This is the problem with a 16 year old senior. I don’t recommend it! </p>
<p>Younger is not being advanced grade level-wise, regardless of similar abilities.</p>
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Most admitted students at SHYPM did not submit their class rank. For example, the Princeton CDS mentions that only 26% of the freshman class submitted class rank. The Harvard CDS goes so far as to say they don’t consider class rank. HSs may submit some basic information about grade distribution, but admissions often does not know who is in the top few of their HS class with much precision. Being in the top few is also by no means required to be admitted to SHYPM for both basic public schools and rigorous high schools. The Stanford RD decision thread actually shows a negative correlation with acceptance rate and class rank. That is, the rejected posters have a much higher median class rank than the accepted posters (accepted shine in other ways, such as overall having better ECs, awards, and other characteristics to suggest they are likely to amazing things in college and beyond). I was accepted to 2 of 3 SHYPM schools I applied to without even being in the top 10% of my basic public school HS class. I was ~85th percentile in my HS class . With holistic admission schools, like SHYPM, many parts of the application can override less that top few class rank. That said, I agree that the discussed selective colleges consider how difficult it is to get high grades at your school instead of just taking GPA alone, without consideration to the school and selected classes.</p>
<p>Well, I think it’s not difficult to identify the top few in any school. Combining info such as one’s transcript (for course rigor), GPA, academic honors (e.g. consistent high honor, cum laude society etc.), and standardized test scores, colleges just know who those top few are. And if an AO has worked with the same school for a number of years, they have a way to do that even more easily. In most cases, ECs will play a role when outstanding academic qualifications are met first. Of course, they do admit non top few’s all the time, but it’s fair to say overall “top few” have a better chance.</p>
<p>As someone about to go to a school on the consortium of stem schools I have two reasons. One the math and science classes I can do that most high schools lack. How many other schools offer a chemistry course that uses multivariate calc or offer real analysis. The other part is the environment which is full of students who love science and just helps in its easier to connect with people with similar interests.</p>
<p>The original post that triggered this discussion mentioned “schools at which almost any breathing person can get straight A’s”, so I am assuming top few according to HS grades, rather than the top few overall college applications. At many high schools, you do not have a large GPA difference between the top few and others in class rank. There are several posts on CC that mention easier grading HSs with more than 10% of students tied for valedictorian with a perfect GPA. What if you have a HS with 2% of students receiving a perfect GPA, 3% with all As and 1 B, and 5% with all As and 2 Bs. HSs that have a large number of high GPA students like this usually do not submit class rank. Does the AO know that all A’s and 1 B is in the top few for class rank, but all A’s and 2 Bs is not? Does he care? That’s what I meant by “with much precision.” Sure, they can tell who is a strong academic candidate and who is likely to succeed in the college, but it’s difficult to identify the top few in class rank with much precision when the HS does not provide details.</p>
<p>My kids could always identify who the “top few” were in their schools, even without knowing what their grades were. I suspect the GCs know this as well.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure about the GCs, who tend to have more contact with kids who are struggling.</p>
<p>But the teachers know. When my kid went to her 8th grade English teacher with a recommendation form for a selective high school program, he said something like “I’ve been getting a lot of these. It’s good to finally get one from someone who actually should apply.”</p>
<p>I wouldn’t bet the house on the kids knowing who the top students are. When class ranks were released in D’s senior year D told everyone she “didn’t remember” her rank. Kind of hard to forget a single digit number (in a class of 400), but she didn’t want to brag. A lot of folks including some of D’s good friends and their parents were surprised when she was named in the top 10 at graduation. At least one student who made a big fuss over being such a great student/great grades (and all the kids believed it) didn’t qualify for the academic banquet honoring the top 10%. Award tended to go to the “favorites” or the kids who were very strong in one subject but not necessarily strong in all.</p>
<p>As for the teachers knowing…way back in ES, I tried for 2 years to get D tested to move up in math. Neither teacher agreed. Then her standardized tests came back showing her in the 99th percentile. Oops. A little blonde girl who is good at math? Who knew?</p>
<p>The high school may not rank nor have a valedictorian but the GC knows the top ranking students. The GPA is printed on all transcripts.</p>
<p>Marian makes a valid point that the GC may not know, in part because they may just have too many students. I think the teachers writing recs probably know who the strongest students are.</p>
<p>Not necessarily. I think teachers know who the strongest students in their subject areas are…but don’t necessarily know where a kid who is strong or weak in their area stands overall. </p>
<p>You might, for example, have a kid who struggles at math but is a star in English and social studies. The math teachers may have a very different view of that student than the social studies department has.</p>
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<p>You say this like it’s a bad thing. But when the time comes to get recommendations, it may be a good one.</p>
<p>In any case, when presented transcripts, standardized test scores, plus college counselor’s input on course offerings and grading, you bet AO’s can have a pretty good idea on who are the “top few”. Exact ranking may not be clear but it’s not necessary and is not what AO’s rely on to make decisions. On top of GPA, the rigor of courses taken plays a big role. And SAT’s play at least a supplemental role. The ranking based solely on GPA may be different than what AO’s come up with when combining all those pieces.</p>
<p>I think the answer to the original question posed on this subject depends on the student. If you mostly want your son/daughter attending a prestigious h.s. for bragging rights among your relatives and neighbors (…yes there ARE parents like that…LOL), then you are sending them there for the wrong reason. Also, if the student will likely be around the top 20-25%, then going there can be a challenge to them and better prepare them for college. There are also a number of private h.s. schools, depending where you live, that might also provide a similar challenge to those who don’t find enough challenges in public h.s. Another way to approach that is to also encourage gifted students to expend beyond just studying and participate in extra-curriculars or sports where intelligence alone isn’t the only criteria. You many not need to change schools to make that happen.</p>
<p>If they will barely have the credentials to get in and then constantly struggle to get grades near the bottom of their class, then the entire exercise will be a source of continuity frustration and anxiety for them. Students have a sense of who the top performers are reardless of a school’s grading system. Every student will not suddenly move to the top fo their class by just ‘studying more/harder’.</p>
<p>Those are the realities the student AND parents should consider as part of making that decision.</p>