Advice for inital mtgs and followup with a GC

Parents Forum
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<p>Re: FA stuff</p>

<p>I think it completely inappropriate to expect a general high school GC to know very much about the FA process at individual colleges. Moreover, I would expect GCs to be very, very reluctant about asking students (or their parents) the necessary questions about the family financial situation to actually be in a position to provide quality FA advice even if they are experts on how the system works.</p>

<p>I do think generic parent workshop/seminars to let parents know the basic rules about FAFSA and CSS Profile based aid are worthwhile. It should be pointed out in such workshops that most colleges do not meet full need and most colleges do max out the Stafford loans in creating need-based FA packages. Also worth pointing out is that for a freshman, the max Stafford amount is $5500. And a general mantra to the students, “Have you talked to your parents about what they can afford to pay?” is reasonable.</p>

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<p>I teach advisory classes on the college application financial aid process during junior year for my caseload. The students are pulled out of gym one day a week. As a matter of fact my kids are having a test next week on financial aid and affordability stories (something I got from Calreader :wink: )</p>

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<p>One of the things I particularly appreciated from D’s guidance counselor was a list of non-top-20 schools that were absolutely fabulous for certain majors. She encouraged kids to think beyond some of the names to learn more about what might be particularly strong schools in specific areas of interest – these were also often schools that had much better than average merit aid, though I don’t think that was the reason they were listed. </p>

<p>I do think that guidance counselors have an important role to play in helping kids (and parents) make sure that a list includes a range of schools, and not all reaches.</p>

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<p>@sybbie: You’re a real asset to your students and an great example of a high-quality GC!</p>

<p>[My own background is second generation college professor with friends in both admissions and financial aid offices—not a typical parent background, I admit.]</p>

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<p>Robinsueanders “I think it completely inappropriate to expect a general high school GC to know very much about the FA process at individual colleges. Moreover, I would expect GCs to be very, very reluctant about asking students (or their parents) the necessary questions about the family financial situation to actually be in a position to provide quality FA advice even if they are experts on how the system works.”</p>

<p>Well, I sort of agree and sort of disagree. My concern is that some guidance counselors never raise the subject or do much to point families in the direction of information. I wouldn’t expect a counselor to get into any significant detail, but I do think it would be helpful if more asked families during this initial meeting, “Has your family made an estimate of how much you would be able to pay towards college each year and talked about that with respect to the cost of attendance of different schools? Do you think you will want to apply for financial aid? If so, have you done the FAFSA forecaster?” I’d also like to see the counselor raise the issue of choosing one or two financial safety schools.</p>

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<p>Hey sybbie, that’s very nice to hear :-).</p>

<p>I strongly disagree with robinsue about it being inappropriate for high school counselors to bring up financial aid. I think this is a common attitude among high school counselors, but it really does not serve parents and students well for the school to be hands-off about this topic. Families should learn by the junior year how financial aid and merit aid work and how to research a college’s policies and practices around financial aid, so they can build a college list with affordability in mind. </p>

<p>There are ways to teach people about all this without invading their privacy. I give financial aid presentations to parents in school settings and in the public library, and people seem to learn a lot without having to reveal their own circumstances. Though I also find that a surprising number of people aren’t all that guarded about their circumstances anyway. A certain camaraderie develops when they all learn about the EFC together :-).</p>

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<p>@arabrab:</p>

<p>I agree that a GC should not use the “pie-in-the-sky” view about FA in the sense of telling students that they should not worry about FA because things will work out once they are accepted, I also don’t see how a GC can provide quality advice about true financial safeties without knowing more about the family’s finances than they’re likely to know—with the obvious exception of the kids who are so poor as to be on free lunch or other such programs, when a GC might be safe in concluding that the FAFSA EFC is pretty close to $0. [But even then, if the kid is talking about a CSS Profile school, would the GC really be in a position to know about a potential uncooperative NCP?]</p>

<p>I think that the necessity of filling out the FAFSA forcaster, reading what (little?) information individual colleges have to say about need-based aid, and the general notion that FAFSA EFC should be regarded as the MINIMUM (not maximum) amount a family should expect to pay is all fine and dandy. But I think communicating that can and should be done in parent/student workshops and written communication. I just don’t see how a public HS GC is supposed to feel comfortable asking an apparently middle or upper-middle class student/parent “Have you thought about how you will pay for college?” in a private meeting.</p>

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<p>Our school does a big assembly where they go over the financial aid process. They tell parents about FAFSA (and have forms handy) and CSS. They tell them about Fastweb and local scholarships. They send my son emails all the time about local scholarships (all of which seem to be for other demographics than us!) They do a separate assembly as well for sports scholarship stuff.</p>

<p>The head of the counseling program has it running like a well-oiled machine, so that even the less good counselors do a pretty good job.</p>

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<p>FogFog – this is a private school? Remember that the GC is evaluated by administration more on how many kids get into their top choices than where those admissions lie in terms of the elite strata. In other words, if the GC can dumb down the first choice schools so that the kids are getting into their top choices … they look better!</p>

<p>My son’s college counselor at a private school was really pushing the little LACs where she’d had a lot of success in prior years. My son had a very high reach, the GC <em>who was an alum of the reach in question</em> wouldn’t encourage him. Long story short, we insisted, and our son will graduate from her alma mater.</p>

<p>I would make your list. Possibly pay for a professional opinion – taking kiddo’s grades, scores, ambitions, ECs and wishlist into account – to come up with a good list and strategy. And don’t count on the GC to do much.</p>

<p>Or … you could discuss with the headmaster how disappointed you are that your $25K/year (more or less) isn’t buying you acceptable college counseling.</p>

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<p>Calreader:</p>

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<p>I am NOT opposed to financial aid presentations. I think they are a great idea and for most folks they provide a way of disseminating critical knowledge. But I get the impression that parents expect the GC to bring this up in individual meetings with parents and students in order to provide clearly individualized advice.</p>

<p>But there’s a difference between saying to a group: </p>

<p>“You need to know how much you can pay and make sure you’ve got at least a couple of financial safeties on your list. And here are some rules of thumb for identifying financial safeties.”</p>

<p>and saying to an individual student (or his/her parents):</p>

<p>“Your college list is currently X, Y, and Z. I’m worried you don’t have a financial safety. What’s your EFC?”</p>

<p>A person can choose to be cavalier or not about revealing their EFC. But in an individual meeting between a GC and a student and/or their family, being asked directly or indirectly “How much can you afford to pay?” may well be taken as an invasion of privacy.</p>

<p>If the student is poor enough to be documented as “free lunch”, then it’s easier since the GC doesn’t have to ask about rough family financial situation.</p>

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<p>I ask the financial aid question in the one on one meetings that I have with students because every one situation is not black and white. </p>

<p>In high school we have a wide variety of families and situations ranging from teen parents (who can be considered independent students in the financial aid process) , students who live in temporary housing, foster care, wards of the court, deceased parents, incarcerated parents, single parent households, in tact families, stepparents and blended families, undocumented students where one size definitely does not fit all. </p>

<p>I write non-custodial waiver letters, request for professional judgements, request for dependency overrides, and third party letters explaining a student’s situation.</p>

<p>I ask about money up front not to get into the family’s business but to guide them toward schools based on their situation. I ask them to talk realistically with each other about how much their parents are willing to pay or borrow for their education.</p>

<p>There are times where for one student, the best option is to try to get picked up through seek, college discovery, EOP or HEOP (all are the same program but they take place at differnet college levels) because they can only be admitted to these programs as incoming freshmen and can stay in through graduate school. </p>

<p>Others students may be prime candidates for merit $$. Some may be in the position for generous need based FA. Some families look good on paper but are cash poor while others are house rich and cash poor.</p>

<p>From what I have seen the situation of no 2 families are the same. The net net is that it does not do anyone any good to fall in love with a school that is not a financially feasible option for the child/student.</p>

<p>This is also one of the reasons why I spend weeks going over the financial aid process; FAFSA, CSS profile, merit money, need blind, demonstrated need, need-aware, gaps, loans, etc.</p>

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<p>I guess the GC could word this PC as ‘I recommend that all students calculate their families EFC to make sure their target schools are both an academic and financial match. If you have any questions about that I can help/point you in the direction of the person who can help, etc.’. Some sort of statement that simply brings up that everyone should be considering cost along with everything else, and open the door if the family wants to pursue additional help.
This would depend on the school (public vs. private) and how much of a role they play beyond scheduling classes and writing the LOR. Ideally every student/family should know what their EFC is. Often it can be a shocker for people who go into the process thinking certainly they qualify for aid, only to realize that they do not.</p>

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<p>Of course a counselor shouldn’t be asking how much a family’s EFC is, or how much they can afford to pay. It’s hard to imagine a counselor deciding to ask those questions.</p>

<p>But counselors can and should (in my opinion) ask questions like these:

  • “Are you up to date on the costs of different colleges these days?” Then you can talk about the breakdown of costs in Cost of Attendance, the current costs for the state university system, the range of costs for private colleges, and regional tuition discount agreements. You can remind/inform people about the difference between the college’s sticker price and the each family’s net price, which may well be lower because of merit scholarships or need-based aid.
  • “Do you think affordability might be a factor in your child’s college choice?” If not, then fine, you’re done. If so, then you can ask:
  • “Have you already checked what your Expected Family Contribution is likely to be?” If not, then you can point them to the College Board calculator, which gives an estimate of the EFC according to the federal methodology and the default institutional methodology.
  • “Would you like some starter suggestions for schools with good merit aid / lower costs / etc.?”</p>

<p>Even when I’m helping people individually and they know we can have a confidential conversation, I tell people that no one else needs to know their EFC or the amount they can actually afford to pay. But <em>they</em> absolutely need to know these two things, and they need to have compared the two, so their child will know what strategy to follow in finding affordable colleges. If their EFC is significantly higher than the amount they can actually afford, then we know the student should be looking for merit aid or lower-cost colleges or both. If the EFC is about the same as the amount they can afford to pay, then we know the student should be looking for schools that are likely to meet their full need, or close to it. If the EFC is much less than the amount they can actually afford, they’ll know that they have latitude to look at schools where they might not get a great aid package.</p>

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<p>Sybbie, how I wish you had been our GC. As GCs in our high school are trusted with the most sensitive of information, I do not think it inappropriate to inquire about finances and EFCs. The aid workshops offered are more along the lines of how to fill our your FAFSA- don’t think there are many kids applying to PROFILE schools.</p>

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<p>Sabray, thanks. Sometimes we really need to know the situation in order to help the kid.</p>

<p>Just this application season, I had a kid who is a US citizen. Her mom is undocumented and literally left her to live with her sister 2 years ago. When filing the FAFSA, it must be signed by your parent. If your parent is not eligible for a PIN, they must sign and send snail mail no matter where they live. This student has not heard from her mother since she put her on a plane. On the surface, the kid was only eligible for federal aid and not state aid (TAP) because her parent was not living in the state. HESC told me that she would not be eligible for tap unless she could be made an independent student.</p>

<p>The kid needed a dependency override, which on the surface she would have not been eligible for. It took a lot of letters and the kid having confidence in me that I would only share what was only absolutely necessary.</p>

<p>I was able to pick up a phone, talk directly to an admission director and a financial aid director who just told me to fax her stuff over. They excercised professional judgement gave my student the dependency overrides she needed and she is going away to college this fall. Our families have to be able to trust us if we are going to help them.</p>

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<p>^ Every once in a while you find a gem in the system who you are blessed to have come across. That one person can make an incredible difference in a young persons future. I am sure there are many families that feel this way about the assistance you have offered sybbie!</p>

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<p>…Why does any parent think the GC should be responsible for anything concerning the SAT/ACT?..</p>

<p>I am a clueless parent. PSAT at my daughter’s hs came from GC. From that, I just assumed all tests come from GC. Now I know.</p>

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<p>Sybbie, there is a place in heaven for you. In our local HS, the GC’s need to appear in court as character witnesses, work with law enforcement, coordinate psych services, and ride herd on social workers who can’t get emergency housing or food stamps approved. I think they do god’s work- but it’s not realistic to expect them to also be a source of wisdom about financial aid.</p>

<p>Even in less troubled school systems, some GC’s just don’t have the expertise to be up to date on the nuances of loans, merit, need, or the intricacies therein.</p>

<p>You are very special.</p>

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<p>If I am completely off the mark with my expectations of a GC, then I have no idea what the GC’s job is. If they are just to expedite transcripts, then our school district should hire more admins and forget “guidance counselor” as that would be misnomer.</p>

<p>Or do they just provide guidance to the lower end academic kids who don’t have parents to guide them?</p>

<p>Our school is not like one of the previous posters who listed all the GC’s other jobs. In our school, we can’t even get an appt with the GC from Nov-Jan because they are “working on” college applications. Thus, I thought provide guidance for college was a priority.</p>

<p>I simply wanted some input into things that I was not up-to-date on and information I did not have access to. First time around, I wanted to get that from the GC. I thought they were there for that - to provide guidance.</p>

<p>Believe me, I prefer to do it all in concert with my S/D. For my second kid, my expectations are in a better place.</p>

<p>No wonder why my friend who is on the school board taps the superintendent for guidance on college-related issues. It’s apparently not the GC’s job.</p>

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<p>FWIW,
GC’s do a lot of things every day that we just don’t think about. They are not simply college central machines. The often have to deal with things that come up very quickly. My son’s GC was available at a moment’s notice when two students went to her very quietly with concerns about a classmate who had spoken about harming themselves. That student was quietly pulled from class, parents were called, social worker was contacted, school schedule was modified to allow the student time to receive treatment. To us this seems heroic. In a school this large, sadly it’s probably just ‘a day in the life of a GC’.
This is just one example that came to mind…</p>