Advice on how to handle a difficult math class

[BCEagle91]

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<p>It’s just the way it is once real math begins and it starts becoming
proof heavy. Students either get it or they don’t.</p>

<p>It’s the nature of the field. There’s a reason why the math wizards
get it.</p>

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<p>There are some students that get exposed to it while they are fairly
young. In the references that I listed, note that some of the materials
are from K-6. First Course in Mathematical Logic was aimed at gifted
fifth-graders.</p>

<p>There are many students that take Algebra I, II and Geometry in
middle-school and you could follow that up with Honors courses instead
of AP courses. The AP courses are geared towards applications (my
opinion) while the old, traditional Honors courses are theory-based.
I think that most high-schools that offer Calculus lean heavily
towards AP as that’s the recognized college-level course.</p>

<p>You do have math wizards that can pick this stuff up quickly but I’d
guess that most of the students that do very well have just seen it
before.</p>

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<p>She is freshman and took CALC BC as a junior and did very well on the
AP test and the class.</p>

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<p>From the Original Post:</p>

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<p>My daughter is taking an honors version of the math class that she
took in 12th grade.</p>

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<p>From these two I assume that she took multivariable in her senior year
which is good.</p>

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<p>Her high school failed her in not introducing proofs. She knows that
she is at a clear disadvantage compared to those who had it in high
school.</p>

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<p>I think that this was part of the standards movement back in the late
1980s and early 1990s. By the late 1990s, proofs became harder to find
in high-school math texts.</p>

<p>BTW, here’s a link to problem sets from Phillips Exeter Academy for
Math 2 (I assume the sophomore year). They are nice enough to provide
sample problem sets so that other school districts can use them (for
a fee?). You can find many proof problems in the psets by searching
for “prove”.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.exeter.edu/documents/math2all.pdf[/url]”>http://www.exeter.edu/documents/math2all.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It may well be that the vast majority of high-schools don’t cover
proofs anymore. I don’t think that it wins any brownie points on state
standards and college entrance exams and I think that most students
that go to college don’t really need to know how to do proofs.</p>

<p>Math, Computer Science, some engineering students, Actuaries,
etc. need to know how to do them but most other majors don’t.</p>

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<p>I know that it is not cool to complain about teachers, and fwiw, she’s
usually not a complainer.</p>

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<p>My son complains to me about some of his teachers and my comment to
him is: welcome to the real world. At his school, the professors are
hired for their research and grant procurement skills first and their
teaching skills third or fourth. There is a lot of stuff that is
dropped on the floor in industry but products get designed,
manufactured and shipped. Even if the process isn’t ideal. I tell my
son that this happens in college too. That probably doesn’t make him
any happier about the problems but at least he understands why things
work the way that they do. I just encourage him to do all that he can
do on his side to work around the problems. If he’s doing his level
best then I’m happy and I tell him that he should be happy too [even
though he might not be].</p>

<p>One aspect of doing all that he can includes getting the book before
the course starts and working through the exercises on his own. This
results in far less new material during the actual course. I have
heard of some students sitting in on classes that they plan to take
the following year so that the material is somewhat familiar when they
take it for credit.</p>

<br>

<p>She has nothing against them personally but sees that the
circumstances under which the graduate student was urgently called to
run the class, that maybe he wasn’t prepared as he should have been.</p>

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<p>Our son had a professor for statistics that had never taught it before -
he was basically two weeks ahead of the students. He did pull it off well
though. I imagine that this happens a lot and that some professors can
do a good job at it and others have a hard time with it.</p>

<p>I think that a grad student should be able to teach a class - they should
know the material quite well and know the course and grading process well.
They may have had a little less practice and less research experience but
that doesn’t always matter in teaching.</p>

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<p>What is the purpose of problem sets? My understanding is that they
are practice for the concepts taught in class. My daughter feels
that that the TA and teacher are teaching two different classes. She
does fine on quizzes which the TA gives and covers the problem set
material, however, the midterm was made by the teacher which covered
problems which left her totally clueless.</p>

<br>

<p>In this case, it might have been more useful looking at tests from
prior years which many professors make available to their students to
gauge their difficulty compared to quizzes and problem sets. I can’t
really comment on the differences without seeing them but I’d suggest
that your daughter ask one of the students that did very well on the
test what the delta between the quizzes and the tests were.</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>

What is the purpose of problem sets? My understanding is that they are practice for the concepts taught in class. My daughter feels that that the TA and teacher are teaching two different classes. She does fine on quizzes which the TA gives and covers the problem set material, however, the midterm was made by the teacher which covered problems which left her totally clueless.

</p>

<p>A lot of times, problem sets cover mechanics and calculation, whereas exams cover understanding of the concepts. (I’m not defending this, merely reporting it-- better problem sets would have easy problems to practice the mechanics and hard problems to exercise the concepts.) Then when the test comes, some students find that they how to do the calculations, but don’t know how to apply them.</p>

<p>For the student, the answer is more practice in addition to the assigned problem sets. The student needs to figure out what the professor will actually expect students to be able to do on the exam. Looking at previous exams from prior years is one great idea; going to office hours and asking the professor point-blank what the important concepts are is another.</p>

[warbrain]

<p>

It’s just the way it is once real math begins and it starts becoming proof heavy. Students either get it or they don’t.</p>

<p>It’s the nature of the field. There’s a reason why the math wizards get it.

</p>

<p>I disagree. I had a lot of trouble with proofs when I first started, and got confused really easily. But last year for example, I got A’s in my 5 proof-based classes. The thing is that math in high school seems to be taught as a series of algorithms and formulas, and there’s little emphasis on understanding and why things work. So when you first encounter proofs, of course it’s going to be hard, you’ve never seen them before. It’s not a big deal, and as you spend more time, you’ll get the hang of it.</p>

<p>Also, just to clarify something, applied math is just as proof-based as pure math. The difference comes from the motivation of the subject matter.</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@warbrain

I disagree. I had a lot of trouble with proofs when I first started, and got confused really easily. But last year for example, I got A’s in my 5 proof-based classes. The thing is that math in high school seems to be taught as a series of algorithms and formulas, and there’s little emphasis on understanding and why things work. So when you first encounter proofs, of course it’s going to be hard, you’ve never seen them before. It’s not a big deal, and as you spend more time, you’ll get the hang of it.

And I disagree with this. Some people get the hang of it, others (including myself) never really seem to. There is a certain kind of thinking involved that comes more naturally to some than to others. I know several math professors who absolutely hate the application side and struggle with showing students applications, and others who are application oriented and less geared to the theorem and proof side.</p>

<p>That’s not to say that everyone can discern what their abilities are on the first round. It can take time and advanced material to sort all that out.</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@bogibogi

The teacher obviously felt there was a problem because in the middle of the semester he had the students fill out a survey where they voiced their discontent.

This may be standard practice rather than any indication that the teacher felt there was a problem. </p>

<p>I would recommend that D (and maybe some other student in the course) visit the instructor and indicate that they did not feel the mid-term reflected the homework, so could he give some guidance as to what would be the best way to study for the final. I would avoid whining about the TA or the apparent disorganization of the instructor himself.</p>

<p>ETA: If you could post or pm a couple of examples of problems she got vs problems she bombed, maybe some of us could get a better idea where the problem is…</p>

[Cardinal_Fang]

<p>

I would recommend that D (and maybe some other student in the course) visit the instructor and indicate that they did not feel the mid-term reflected the homework, so could he give some guidance as to what would be the best way to study for the final.

</p>

<p>This is excellent advice. In fact, D doesn’t even have to say that the midterm reflected the homework, other than to say something like, “I did all the problem sets successfully, but still struggled on the midterm. What else should I be doing to prepare for the final?” </p>

<p>The teacher might well ask, “What was the problem?” That’s when she could pull out her midterm and point to areas of misunderstanding, and the teacher could, we hope, guide her to different problems and exercises, or whatever.</p>

<p>If she approaches the meeting not as an opportunity to complain, but as a chance to improve her learning, she will probably get a warm reception. Almost certainly, the teacher wants her to learn the material and do well on the exam.</p>

[thumper1]

<p>

I suppose a last option is to get a tutor.

</p>

<p>Why would this be the LAST option. In my opinion…it should be the FIRST option. Most schools have a tutorial service center of some sort. My kid would sign up for a tutor at the start of the term for any course she thought might be difficult (she was an engineering major). She found that these student tutors were outstanding and provided her with excellent individual time.</p>

<p>Yes…go to office hours, yes join study groups…but get a tutor as step number ONE.</p>

[jshain]

<p>My S, a freshman Engineering major at Cal, said his Multivariable Calculus class is the “most demoralizing class that he’s ever taken”. For him it’s not the proofs, but the applications. I’ve nagged him to find a tutor and even gone as far as to provide names of 3 individuals, but so far he hasn’t contacted any of them. You can lead your kid to water, but you cannot make him drink… He IS attending the help sessions at the Learning Center but says they are of minimal help at this point.</p>

[MisterK]

<p>D2 has a similar complaint in her upper level math courses. There are a handful of kids who, when they show up in her class, she just groans because she knows they are going to ace everything and make it harder for everyone else to do well on the curve. (And it’s a fairly small school so they tend to show up in her math classes regularly.)</p>

<p>Honestly, I hate this kind of thinking. “Doing well on the curve” isn’t the same as “doing well.” The goal should be to truly understand the content. Once you do, the curve won’t matter at all.</p>

<p>What’s the point, really? Isn’t it about understanding the math?</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@jshain

My S, a freshman Engineering major at Cal, said his Multivariable Calculus class is the “most demoralizing class that he’s ever taken”.

</p>

<p>May be too late now, but the Berkeley College of Engineering has a web page on selecting one’s first math course. The web page includes sample final exam problems from Berkeley freshman calculus courses, because they have found that AP or IB scores are not very good indicators of how well students will do in more advanced math courses.</p>

<p>[Choosing</a> an Appropriate First Math Course — UC Berkeley College of Engineering](<a href=“http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/new-students/choosing-an-appropriate-first-math-course.html]Choosing”>http://coe.berkeley.edu/students/current-undergraduates/new-students/choosing-an-appropriate-first-math-course.html)</p>

[Colorado_mom]

<p>“She has never done proofs before this semester, but is managing fine in her Linear Algebra and Discrete Math classes, both of which are quite proof-heavy.” </p>

<p>Wow. Three math classes. That’s a lot. It sounds like it is just the disorganized on causing her grief. I hope she finds a way to work through it. Good luck!</p>

[sylvan8798]

<p>

@jshain

My S, a freshman Engineering major at Cal, said his Multivariable Calculus class is the “most demoralizing class that he’s ever taken”. For him it’s not the proofs, but the applications.

This could be a problem, since a lot of Engineering is basically applied calculus.</p>

[jshain]

<p>My S ended up getting a C in his Multivariable Math class. Not ideal, but not the worst of outcomes, either. I told him tonight when he said he got a C that he probably said he was failing the class so his mom and I would be happy with his C grade. (For him, getting a C IS like failing the class since he’s never gotten a C in any class before.)</p>

<p>bogibogi, how did your daughter end up?</p>