<p>Affirmative Action wasn’t implemented under Executive Order 10925 was it?</p>
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<p>Native Americans probably do need a number of peers to feel comfortable at Michigan. However reaching a critical mass of Native American students is difficult if not impossible. I imagine that if Michigan could get a larger Native American enrollment it would, but it can’t so reaching a critical mass of Native American isn’t a worthwhile institutional goal. However, Detroit is no more than an hour from Ann Arbor. A substantial black enrollment isn’t that tough with the right institutional policies. </p>
<p>I don’t see how it’s impossible to see how black students might feel uncomfortable in a majority white and Asian institution. I’m sure you’d feel uncomfortable at a school like Morehouse - and Morehouse is more welcoming to whites than Berkeley is to blacks. </p>
<p>You’d feel more comfortable attending Morehouse if Morehouse had more white students.</p>
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<p>Well, for some reason you assume Harlem is more dangerous for whites than it is for blacks despite the fact that most crime in Harlem is black-on-black. If Harlem’s criminals were intent on harming whites they wouldn’t have to go that far out of their way, and in fact their efforts would probably be rewarded with bigger wallets. Yet they don’t. Despite reality you insist on the assumption that blacks in Harlem hate whites which is a prejudiced assumption.</p>
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<p>Berkeley is a state university. If you can’t understand why Yale is more diverse than Caltech, then you’re a lost cause. Better?</p>
<p>No, I have never walked around the campus. I do not need to, however, to refute an exaggeration like “might as well be in Hong Kong!” And besides, we’re talking about “not diverse” like there’s some magical set of percentages or even range of percentages that constitute “diversity.” Would you care to enlighten us as to what they are?</p>
<p>I initially made my “reincarnation of Lowell” comment in jest, but the more I read your comments, the more I’m convinced that you actually are. Quite scary, IMO.</p>
<p>Fab, I suggest you actually get off your computer for awhile and take a little look at America. You might be surprised. Visit a few colleges and then stop by at UCB. Diverse?
You’ve got to be kidding!</p>
<p>“idiotic “critical mass” theory? As I understand it, the theory holds that blacks need a certain level (ie. a “critical mass”) of other blacks on campus in order to feel welcome. It’s surprising that what blacks “need” in order to feel comfortable is always higher than what Native Americans “need”…”</p>
<p>Affirmative action didn’t have to implemented from Executive Order 10925 for the EO to be the source of the original meaning of the phrase. Like I said, unless you can find an older official document with the phrase, my statement stands.</p>
<p>If Native American students can survive without a “critical mass,” I don’t see why it’s “necessary” for black students. If you need a “critical mass” for blacks, then there should be a “critical mass” of equal or greater magnitude for Native Americans. And as you said, we don’t have that, yet it’s not a problem. Why? Who knows? When people accept idiotic theories like “critical mass,” 2+2 might as well be 5.</p>
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<p>Probably not. But having a substantial enrollment of black students who are academically matched with the rest of the campus is much tougher than having just a “substantial black enrollment.”</p>
<p>Morehouse is really a poor example to try to prove your point. A recent freshman class at Morehouse was 93% black. Moreover, Morehouse is an all-male’s liberal arts college. By contrast, a recent freshman class at Berkeley was 42% Asian, 28% white, 11% Hispanic, and 3% black. It had slightly more women than men, and it’s a research university. Not comparable in terms of “overwhelming numbers.”</p>
<p>It is ironic that you accused me of mistaking you for another poster when you have confused me with whom I believe is Androctonus. The sentences you have “found” do not belong to me.</p>
<p>I can agree that Yale is more diverse than Caltech, but I don’t agree that Caltech isn’t diverse.</p>
<p>speedo, I reiterate my question. You talk about “not diverse” like there’s some magical set of percentages or even range of percentages that constitute “diversity.” Would you care to enlighten us as to what they are?</p>
<p>I fail to see how the original meaning has any relevance unless it accompanied implementation. Affirmative Action’s meaning was changed or updated upon implementation to mean something else.</p>
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<p>When has this kind of argument ever been valid? How does it follow that because one group can’t have a critical mass of students, that a critical mass is unnecessary. Maybe Native American students are simply uncomfortable, but the university realizes that giving Native American students the option is better than having almost no Native American enrollment at all.</p>
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<p>That’s silly. How does the needs of one group decide the needs of another group. That’s like saying, well, Jews needed a homeland so we should rip some land from Canada and give it to Native Americans. </p>
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<p>Right. Native Americans only have reservations. That means we should abolish Israel because another group that survived genocide has managed to survive without their own state.</p>
<p>Great thinking!</p>
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<p>Why, exactly, must black students be matched academically with the rest of the campus? As long as they can do the work and are happy they’re fine. The instate students at Michigan are appreciably weaker than its substantial out-of-state student population and there’s no problem.</p>
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<p>I know Morehouse is 93% black. My father is an alumnus. I said you’d feel uncomfortable at Morehouse because it was overwhelmingly black. You seem to have missed my point.</p>
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<p>Caltech is much less diverse than Yale. Caltech would definitely benefit from more diversity. As it stands I, and I think most people, would take a diverse MIT over Caltech any day.</p>
<p>No Fab, I’ve been perfectly clear. You’re the magical percentage person. Walk around campus and tell me if Berkeley is diverse. It’s obviously a heavily Asian campus. UCB can no longer attract top oos talent. Why would any elite want to imitate that? For what purpose? They’d end up with the same problem as UCB, the top students wouldn’t want to come - too many Asians! They want to go to an American college, they want to feel like they’re in the good old USA. That’s what the customers want, give it to 'em. Diversity sells, nobody wants to get on campus and see 10 thousand Asians, it’s a downer, can’t sell that. It’s business and the product has to sell. This is America, people want to buy America. They don’t want to feel like they’re in Hong Kong. Sorry to have to reveal the dirty little secret to you, but that’s reality. You might as well face up to it.</p>
<p>I wrote, “Executive Order 10925 contains the original meaning of affirmative action.” You replied, “No, Executive Order 10925 has the interpretation that you agree with.” Now, you seem to accept that it had the original meaning, but the original meaning is irrelevant. I think our disagreement over whether EO 10925 contained the original meaning is over.</p>
<p>In order to believe that the “critical mass” for Native Americans is not equal to the “critical mass” for blacks, one has to believe in racial essential*ism<a href=“ie.%20racial%20classifications%20are%20inherently%20different%20from%20other%20racial%20classifications%20%5Bi%5Dbecause%5B/i%5D%20of%20the%20racial%20classification%20itself”>/i</a>. I do not subscribe to the racialist viewpoint. Hence, I find the argument that Native Americans can live with a smaller “critical mass” than blacks to be preposterous.</p>
<p>Why shouldn’t black students be matched academically? What makes them so special that they shouldn’t be? Why are you advocating for different treatment instead of equal treatment? That doesn’t sound like equality of opportunity at all to me; that sounds like equality of result. Don’t forget that students who aren’t academically matched with the rest of their campus tend not to be able to do the work and hence not be happy and not be fine.</p>
<p>I was pointing out that Morehouse is not comparable to Berkeley and thus isn’t a good choice to prove your point about “feeling uncomfortable.” Even with it’s plurality Asian enrollment, Berkeley is far, far more diverse than Morehouse. 58% of Berkeley’s last freshman class is non-Asian, but only 7% of Morehouse’s last freshman class is non-black. How is Morehouse a good example to prove your point?</p>
<p>does anyone really think that these schools really give a crap about diversity. Lip service only. Diversity sells - that’s what it’s about. It’s essentially marketing.</p>
<p>From the Court’s opinion in Grutter,…a number that encourages underrepresented minority students to participate in the classroom and not feel isolated. "</p>
<p>Looking it up! </p>
<p>I don’t know about in the classroom, but on certain campus tours, “we” (check writers) just relaxed and stopped counting</p>
<p>Are you aware that what you’re saying is fundamentally the exact same as what Lowell said about Jews over half a century ago? I’ll reproduce the quote for you in the hopes that it will open your eyes:</p>
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<p>This is America, you’re right. And so, you are free to be as prejudiced as you like. If your daughter brings me home to dinner, you don’t have to pretend and act like I’m a Chinese Sidney Poitier; no, you are free to kick me out. You are free to wallow in your nightmares about Yellow Peril. Sleep tight and don’t let the bed bugs bite.</p>
<p>“nobody wants to get on campus and see 10 thousand Asians, it’s a downer”</p>
<p>You better get used to that fact.</p>
<p>Although Asians make up only 4%, almost all of them value education for their children and almost all of them want their kids to go to college. Almost all of the Asians kids do go to college.</p>
<p>fab you’re missing the point. Whether I’m prejudiced or not is not important. It’s America that’s prejudiced! That’s who the colleges are marketing too. Sure 50 years ago they were only going to put up with so many Jews on campus, now it’s Asians. Right or Wrong, who knows, but that’s the current reality. They have a product to sell.</p>
<p>as for #259 I don’t care, Harvard can be 100% Asian. You don’t understand America. This isn’t about justice or scores or grades it’s about the product.</p>