<p>Tatin, yes, but the skeptic in me says that we see only what the media chooses to show us. I’m not trying to defend the ones who cheered.</p>
<p>Did any of you catch Mark Geragos’ comment yesterday about the wife of bomber 1 charged with shoplifting? So it was not the mother - ?</p>
<p>“I will never forget the images of men and women in the Middle East cheering the attacks of 9-11. Never forget”
-I will never ever forget…while I will never forget the whole entire day, out frantic attempts to call our S. in NYC who used to have client meetings with his biggest client, our total neglect for our D. who was one of the few still at her school while most others were picked up by crying parents and she was simply scared. After we picked her up and realized that all after school activities have been cancelled, she was glued to TV for hours. The girl who never watches TV, was watching for hours how towers are going down, again and again and again and we did not say a word realizing that this wa her way of coping…her brother could have been killed and her sister-in-law was right under towers in subway when it was all happenning, thank you subway designers, it all withstand!..while thousands of others were celebrating on the streets. They will never be called human beings in my heart, never and ever, they are void of any human traits, just like this family in Boston, lived by hatred…</p>
<p>Bunsen–I believe both bomber 1’s wife and mother had shoplifting charges against them. I noticed that and found it quite fascinating. They say we select mates who are like one of our parents. hmm…</p>
<p>That was news to me about bomber 1’s wife being charged with shoplifting, so I looked it up. She was arrested in July 2007 for shoplifting $67 worth of merchandise from Old Navy in Warwick, RI. I read somewhere that the charges were dropped in exchange for a $200 fine and community service. </p>
<p>She and bomber1 were married on June 21, 2010. I have read conflicting reports that Zahara is 2-1/2 years old and that she is 3 years old. Perhaps the marriage occurred (or was hastened) because she was pregnant?</p>
<p>shoplifting is a very small thing…I cannot focus on this in a whole terrifying picture of this family and many many of others just like them…we are NOT protected, we are completely vulnerable, even when we posses the knowledge of potential crime activity, no actions. In most cases, we do not have this type of info…shoplifting, I wish they continue organizing this type of crimes, maybe we will be a bit safer, just paying a bit more at the store to cover the store’s losses, not big prize for saving lives in my mind.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>However, Islam is not compatible with western values. I fail to see why we accept immigrants from muslim countries with a history of intolerance. They rarely add anything to our country that someone else could provide. The vast majority of Mexicans who lie cheat and steal to get to America do so because they want to be come Americans. They don’t come here to change America. I don’t think the same can be said for the vast majority of muslims.</p>
<p>
While that is true of many, it is not true of all and there are many Muslims who are desperate to get out of their home countries and come here with incredible gratitude and make wonderful lives for themselves and contribute to our community. I know the patient of a Pakistani doctor who is grateful for the doctor’s presence in this country because against great odds and discouragement from other medical professionals in the time of crisis the doctor cracked his chest and manually beat his heart to keep him alive until further measures were possible. This doctor is from a family of doctors, public interest lawyers and social workers who do absolutely wonderful things that benefit more people than even cross their paths. I know one member of that family very, very well and you will never find more patriotic Americans because they left hell on earth and revel on being here. They are not alone.
I’m not saying that this is the norm and I work in Times Square and was in Manhattan in 9/11, so I know beyond question how virulent and violent the anti-American feeling is, but there has to be a better way than further victimizing other victims of these monsters. Where I will get flamed is that I think young, uneducated men aren’t the most desirable of immigrants in any situation.</p>
<p>I also work with immigrants and you might be surprised at how many Mexican and central American immigrants hate America more than any Muslim ever could because they believe we took their lands. You might also be surprised to learn how many do not want to be here, are rage-filled because they feel that strong forces conspired to force them from their homes, and will leave as soon as they have amassed whatever their desired number is. They also scam, steal and commit fraud at huge levels because they feel ill-used and entitled. I’m not completely sure they are wrong about that.</p>
<p>
I’m surprised that it hasn’t occurred to anyone how offensive this is. Don’t make assumptions about things you don’t know.</p>
<p>
Actually, there is a lot of political agenda. Extremists may use religion to paint their case and present themselves, but the true </p>
<p>
Don’t make assumptions. Being a fanatic of anything, of any religion, is bad. This isn’t an Islam thing. Terrorism isn’t allowed in Islam. Every group has fanatics. </p>
<p>
How many Muslims do you know? The majority of immigrants, and the majority of Muslims, come to this country for financial oppurtunity. I have never heard of anyone coming here to “change America.” Even if someone wanted to, no one is foolish enough to do so.</p>
<p>I would say that as a Muslim, you cannot possibly hate terrorists more than I do. They are hypocrites who only care for themselves and have tainted Islam in the eyes of many in the process</p>
<p>
You have absolutely no idea what I know. And you will note that I used a very careful turn of phrase. What I would say and stand by, is that the exploitation, abuse, and marginalization of women in predominantly Muslim countries and within Islam is a huge problem for the rest of the world. Now it is a good question if those cultural norms pre-dated Islam or were part and parcel, but I would (and do) say that moving women forward in any society would help decrease violence and increase prosperity.</p>
<p>
I said the exact same thing repeatedly.</p>
<p>
Considering that you mention the “marginalization of women in predominantly Muslim countries and within Islam” in a way that implies that the two are related, I feel like you don’t know much about this particular matter. Forgive me if that sounds condescending. My intention is not to be insulting, but I will be blunt for the sake of clarity. What is stated in Islam and what is practiced in Muslim countries are two very different things. “Islamic” countries often have quite a few contradictions in their laws compared to what Islam actually says. And if you look particularly towards dictatorships, the tyrants often twist rules intentionally for their own benefit.
I find it strange how many people feel that Islam has issues with women’s rights, when Muslim women got so many rights before Western women did, and when three quarters of Muslim converts (at least in the UK) are female.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>ZM, let’s get flamed together, since I share this point of view, partially because I’ve seen some examples of what happens when the reality does not meet the expectations these men had for their lives in this country.</p>
<p>
I separated the two because I don’t think they are the same thing. Don’t you understand that the word “and” implies two separate things?</p>
<p>
I’m not really talking specifically about “rights” because that implies a legal framework. I am specifically talking about the treatment of women within a community or a family.</p>
<p>What is funny is that you think you are being insulting when we are actually saying the very same things. So, no, you are not being insulting or condescending when you are agreeing with me.</p>
<p>
In the immigrant population that I work with, some of the young men are very guilty of magical thinking in a big way. They really think that everyone lives like the people in the movies and are shocked to be living ten to a one bedroom apartment and not having gorgeous women available at all times. In my community, there was a huge racial kerfluffle involving young immigrant men being victimized by criminals. What was interesting to me was how much of that was attributable to cultural misunderstanding and thwarted expectations. The press made it out to be a racial thing, but it really wasn’t, because a significant portion of the attacks were by black men who were deeply offended by the perception (which was acted on) among some immigrant men that black women are always for sale. the group I work with did a lot of blunt talking to clear up that misconception, but the propensity to get drunk and walk the streets with a lot of cash still hasn’t been resolved.</p>
<p>
If this is truly the case, I apologize for becoming defensive. But I am having a trouble understanding how you came to the conclusion that there is “an inherent problem with Islam” if that is the case. Of course, you said “probably,” and not “certainly,” but it still implies that you are leaning towards the idea that there is an inherent problem. Which is what bothers me.</p>
<p>
I imagine there were those who were mourning in the Middle East as well. They don’t get the media coverage though :(</p>
<p>
Having an inherent problem doesn’t mean that something is not worthwhile, valuable, or important. It doesn’t mean that the thing should be destroyed. There are no belief systems, organizations, groups, philosophies promulgated by imperfect human beings that don’t have inherent problems. That’s because all humans have problems, too. </p>
<p>In another thread, we could and have discuss the inherent problems of other religions, as well. I would venture to say that most Christians know that the religions founded and existing in Christ’s name have some inherent problems, too. Islam is the subject of this thread, but it doesn’t stand alone in human history as having problems.</p>
<p>
Well, if someone believes in a religion, they don’t believe that the religion has inherent problems, but that only the followers have faults. :rolleyes:
But I’m sorry if I jumped the gun. I just saw “inherent problem with Islam” in a post that also was connected to the subject of terrorism, and a sort of red light went off. I apologize.
I would love to actually debate about what exactly you think the flaws in Islam are, but I don’t want this thread to shut down because of me. :p</p>
<p>
You can’t say what everyone believes in any event. And some of us hold a faith that “religion” as a noun is a man-made institution and necessarily imperfect.</p>
<p>
Alright. Many people who believe, then.</p>
<p>
I’m aware. I was simply pointing out that this doesn’t apply to everyone.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I’m Catholic. 150 years ago–and in some communities, much more recently–“popery” was seen as inconsistent with American values. </p>
<p>There are some people, including some Jews, who think that Orthodox Judaism is demeaning to women. </p>
<p>I only know a few Muslims. All of those I know are good, decent people. I used to work with a young Turkish attorney who was a devout Muslim. Prayed 5 times a day, observed Ramadan, etc. He loves the US precisely because people of all faiths co-exist relatively peacefully. As a Turk who is seeing some issues with radical Islam in his homeland, he is more anti-Islamic terrorist than almost everyone else I know. </p>
<p>And, banning people from areas in which there is terrorism? Hey, does that mean Iranian Jews who fled the Ayatollah should have been told they couldn’t come here? </p>
<p>Johar came here when he was 9 or 10. Would he have come under the ban of young “men” immigrating?</p>
<p>But stressedouttt, I was speaking for myself. (I’m a Protestant from a very, umm, protesting, denomination in the historical sense, which believes that only God is perfect).</p>