@Snowball City do you have someone in mind to replace him in Minnesota? Can you make suggestions? Honestly curious. I haven’t decided how I feel about this yet, other than shocked and very disappointed. I think there will be lots of disappointment along this avenue in the coming days, unfortunately. I do wonder/worry what will happen with Franken’s seat if he departs, and the only immediate replacements that come to mind are Erik Paulsen or Tom Emmers, who I have zero excitement about. Other than that, I draw a blank. Interested to hear what the possibilities could be.
@Defensor “Tweeden initially declined to kiss Franken multiple times, but he continued to harrass her until she finally reluctantly agreed to it in order to try and get him to back off.”
I agree that he was being a jerk. However, in my mind, there is still a big difference between a kiss with grudging consent and a kiss without consent.
Furthermore, his behavior (he could deny the kiss incident and attack her instead) suggests to me that he may actually regret his actions.
I think it does matter that he seems willing to take responsibility and to champion legislation to protect and support women. If he is sincere, then great. That makes a big difference.
In contrast, we have the endless denials and a false promise to sue all 14 lying women as soon as the election is over. He would have followed through on that promise, if he were really innocent.
Being a general skeptic about people (men especially) in power and politics, I always thought Democrats would be implicated in sexual harassment accusations (just like I think a few Democrats will be implicated in some of Mueller’s investigations.)
That it’s Franken is disappointing because I think he’s a good guy with ideas that would benefit the majority of average people, and it’s depressing to think that – if in fact this was an isolated incident – one short phase of bad behavior years before he was an elected official could end a career that could benefit a lot of Americans.
@“Cardinal Fang” – what was it that made you change your mind on the likelihood of an ethics investigation?
@blackbird881 I haven’t researched it heavily but I would like to look at Rebecca Otto.
I’ve re-evaluated the likelihood of an ethics investigation because I gave a thought to how other Senators vulnerable to such an investigation, and other opposite-party Senators who know about their vulnerabilities, would be likely to behave. I now think there will be a half-hearted investigation, or no investigation. Franken would be replaced by another Democrat, so the Republicans don’t have a huge incentive to get rid of him. Senators in both parties would just as soon not open all the cans of worms that are lying about.
I try my best to be objective, but I find myself wanting to minimize or disbelieve accusations of impropriety against members of my own “tribe”.
Another topic I’d like to float here: We men are genetically wired to be attracted to women of child bearing age. I’m not sure that “pigs” is the best word for it; “lecherous” might be better. I’m not using that as an excuse or justification for inappropriate behavior. But it’s a fact of nature.
I also believe that we aren’t genetically programmed to be monogamous and that, for many men, the dictates of religion is the only check on their philanderous nature. Full disclosure: I’m agnostic, monogomous, and enjoying looking at attractive women.
@“Cardinal Fang” "This is based on pure speculation, but I imagine that there is at least one Senator who has committed a sexual infraction that is worse than what Franken is accused of doing. "
No question about it. Plus, since the Franken incident happened before he was a member of the Senate, that really raises the bar for congressmen. If any infraction from their life can bring them down. I think that is why we are hearing very little from male Senators in either party. They would be opening a can of worms that they can’t close.
Alternatively, we need to be careful not to just punish the honest, and reward office holders who just continue their lies and attack their the person accusing them. I am sure many in office think Franken is an idiot for telling the truth, and thinking they would just deny everything. How do we manage that difference and encourage some honesty from our elected officials?
If someone were to replace him, of course a Dem would be appointed for the short term (since Mark Dayton, governor of MN, is a Dem). I’d guess Rebecca Otto (State Auditor) would be a top choice (and – miracle of miracles, she said yesterday that he should step down – who could have guessed?). I actually like Rebecca Otto, but she knows an opportunity when she sees one. She is running for governor now, since Dayton isn’t seeking another term, but I’ve always thought she had higher ambitions.
I don’t know how it will play out but am thinking they might have to go through the motions. Otherwise it becomes problematic for those on the committee. Meaning that this could be interpreted by some as setting a minimum standard of what will pass muster and not be questioned by the committee. Some will be in agreement with that standard but I think others will be very vocal in opposing it.
It is ironic that by asking for an investigation into his own conduct prior to being an elected official, Franken is putting many other elected officials from both parties in a very uncomfortable position. I am rather looking forward to watching them squirm.
Also, is pretending to grab a woman’s breasts any worse than doing an impression of a person with special needs? idk
We women would prefer not to hear your genetic inclinations brought up in connection with men who commit sexual offenses. I’m genetically inclined to various harmful behaviors, but that doesn’t excuse me if I commit a crime.
If you want to look at attractive women, fine. If you want to stare at a co-worker’s chest, not fine. If you want to rape a a cute 16-year-old, don’t do it and don’t ask us to feel sorry for you because you want to.
More women in the (comedy) writers room, and more female comics can go along way towards changing what is deemed funny.
I’m not attempting to excuse him, but I can imagine comedy-gone-wild when it’s men playing to a largely male audience.
Would that Rooney rapes Stahl skit idea have been pitched if the writers room was at 50% female?
It looks like Franken has quite a few staffers supporting him.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2017/11/17/former-franken-staffers-support/
One of the slides in my Title IX talk shows a pack of gum and a Rolls Royce. Stealing either of them is wrong, but they aren’t the same thing, and that’s why we have the terms “shoplifting” and “grand theft auto.” The right consequence for one is to make Timmy bring it back to the store and apologize to the clerk. The right consequence for the other might be years in jail. Sexual misconduct likewise exists along a continuum of severity, and its consequences should, too.
IF this was one occasion of wrongdoing with one person, then a public shaming and apology may be the right consequence. I don’t see it as disqualifying that a future senator took an obnoxious picture with an adult peer. If we hear more, I’ll reconsider.
I did not see any Dems “giving him a wink and nod”. Can you provide any examples?
Let’s be honest: The point of an ethics investigation is to pretend to do something while waiting to see if the current hurricane blows itself out and things calm down. The ethics investigation will go on for months, and provided this isn’t still a super-toxic issue at the time will come out with some mild censure based on the minor nature of the offenses and the fact that they happened before Franken was in the Senate. Everyone can live with that, including all the Senators who could be accused of unwanted kissing sometime during their careers…
The Republicans will try to use the committee to hold Franken hostage in case the Democrats try to force them not to seat or to expel Roy Moore. And that will be OK, too, because if Moore gets elected the Democrats may want him in the Senate to keep reminding people how nuts the Republicans are.
@Hanna, you’re just the person to give a different perspective.
Franken was accused of two things. He was accused of posing for the picture. He was also accused of badgering a woman to rehearse a kiss, tongue-kissing her when she finally gave in, and then being mean and petty to her afterwards.
He’s guilty of the first, but how about the second? Suppose a theater student was accused of badgering someone into rehearsing a kiss, tongue-kissing them when they reluctantly agreed, then acting petty and obnoxious to them throughout the run of the play. How would a college view such accusations, if they were found to be true? What would the punishment be? A slap on the wrist? A suspension? Surely not expulsion.
I don’t want to hear about how he should stay because he does good work and he is needed.
To me that sounds a lot like the talk around should a brilliant researcher at a university be let go because of harassment. There are other people who could do this, people who have been stifled and no one is worrying about their missed opportunities to show their brilliance.
Rebecca Otto would be a solid senator. She knows how to follow the money which is super important in understanding what is going on in our executive branch.
I think he should stay because his offense doesn’t merit expulsion.