Can we dispense of the slippery slope argument that not protecting the rights of people to call black people the n word will eventually lead to the criminalization of all speech that deviates from the norm…?
I get the rhetorical power of the argument, but it’s such a hyperbolic argument that leads to groups like the ACLU protecting people in Charlottesville based on a refusal to draw distinctions between what constitutes a message that is actually worth protecting.
So yeah, I’m sure First Amendment absolutists and peoponents will articulate that all speech is worth protecting, and I’m willing to disagree.
@TheAtlantic: So who gets to decide what speech is worth protecting and what speech isn’t? Surely it’s occurred to you that if we do not uphold the First Amendment, that it may be speech that you abhor that is protected and your speech that is punished, no?
I’m not advocating for any reworking of the constitution largely because I’m not sure I’m the one most qualified to determine what the brightline is for appropriate/inappropriate speech. I also understand that people have different opinions on where that line should be set.
I am simply stating that I, personally, have no sympathy for this girl, nor do I actually care that she’s facing drastic consequences for her actions. The fact that her hate speech may have gotten her in trouble does not make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.
My comment was largely in respect to two things:
1- The fact that these conversations on CC, instead of focusing on issues of racism on college campuses, young adults owning their choices, or bad parenting that instills racist values, almost always devolve into conversations of free speech and what is the “fair” punishment for their actions.
2- The constant slippery slope argument that gets presented about how if we don’t stand up for hate speech, the pillars of freedom come crashing down that gets repeated ad nauseum.
I think that we may be missing…the bigger picture here simply to once again discuss what public colleges can or can’t do to students. There may be a benefit in reframing the discussion to talk about what actually makes these situations arise in the first place.
It’s interesting that in the litany of threads exposing deploreable actions by students, a large chunk of the discourse is centered around “how will the students be punished in accordance with the law” as opposed to, what I would consider, the more substantive issues at play here.
But of course, I could be off, and the largest concern for parents could very well be a discussion on the 1st Amendment and it’s interplay with these cases. To me, it’s a gray area I don’t concern myself with broaching.
In any case, it looks like the “expelled by the school” notion may be based on a journalist’s misinterpretation, since none of the news articles on the story, including the New York Post one that seems to have started that notion, has any quote from the University of Alabama that she was expelled by the school. That “she is no longer enrolled” may be easily misinterpreted as an expulsion, even though it could have been a voluntary withdrawal. Expulsion by the school seems unlikely, due to the slowness that large public university bureaucracies operate, and this rant does not look anywhere near close to the line of becoming a realistic threat or harassment.
^ Yeah if I recall, the incident with an Alabama student that involved a racist attack a while ago (and threat of physical harm) only got the student suspended, so I’d assume this student wasn’t expelled barring some change in how Alabama handles these issues.
She didn’t ‘probably get expelled’ from Alpha Phi - she had her membership revoked on Tuesday. If she was living in the house (I don’t know if she was a freshman or sophomore) she would not be allowed to live there any longer.
I agree that the racist words were not right. But have you seen the backlash she’s been getting? People on the internet are telling her to die, people were emailing her school demanding she get expelled, her pictures are being ridiculed and picked apart. It’s really horrible stuff. For those of you who don’t know what a finsta is, its basically a private social media where people share stuff with close friends and its just a unspoken thing that you don’t expect those people to share anything you say on it. She made a horrible comment and now people are being cheerleaders for the complete destruction of her life. I dislike seeing people respond to hate with more hate. Probably a naive way of looking at it.
@a20171 that’s the price of having the free speech. You can speak hate about others and others can hate you back. You can’t have one without another. Personally I think some speeches should be punishable as crime, as many European and Asian countries do.
@SculptorDad You can have that opinion but the law is clear that the US Constitution prevents public universities from punishing this sort of speech. Public Universities are, the courts have long ruled, " the government." And that isn’t limited to not jailing people. You can’t punish them in any way for protected speech. You can’t kick them out of school.And unless you change the First Amendment ( not gonna happen) hate speech is protected.
While some media is reporting she was expelled by the university, the carefully worded statement leads me to believe otherwise.
Whatever one thinks the law " should" be no one should think it’s ok for the government to infringe on any right our courts have ruled is legitimate. If one doesn’t understand the danger in that I weep for our constitutional democracy.
I’m not buying the “somethings wrong mentally” crap, and honestly I care as much about her right to free speech as she cared about the feelings of those her rant was targeting, in particular her own classmates. I’ll avoid the slippery slope and focus on the ignorant college student who chose Hate over her Education. Book sense without common sense equals?
@maya54 I wish I could like your posts in this thread more than once.
You are absolutely correct.
Unless there is an imminent threat behind speech, it is protected (the old “yelling fire in a crowded theater” example). The speech, however, ultimately has consequences as has been shown. It’s important to shine a light on these things, not let them fester in the darkness where they grow.
Our constitutional rights don’t mean anything if they are not for everyone, including those with whom we disagree.
One of my daughter’s top college choices, a state university, is hosting a white supremacist on campus. Am I happy? Of course not, especially since my two daughters are a minority in this country. I completely agree, however, that he should have the right to speak.
I’m not a lawyer, just a passionate fan of the First Amendment.
So if we are going to jail this person, do we also jail the Dixie Chicks? Thank god for the 1st Amendment. The value of that protection is taken for granted.
It would be a more civil world if social media would disappear.
I quit facebook pretty much after the election after being shocked by the vitriol spewed by “friends”.
As to who should judge, I think moms should–“if you can’t say something nice, don’t say it.”
My daughter goes to Alabama. The sorority has been threatened and their vehicles vandalized. The girls have been advised to take the sorority letters off of their cars for a while and hire extra security. The girl is gone but there is still plenty of fallout. My daughter is not in that sorority by the way.
It’s true that it would be a more civil world if social media disappeared, but this case reminds us that a “civil world” may well be one in which tacit racism thrives without exposure. A rant like this lets the world know that racism is alive and well among American youth – and I’m sure it’s not limited to Tuscaloosa, either – and the public response surely lets the woman in question and her friends know what a lot of other people think of her attitudes once they become explicit. I can live with that kind of uncivility.
@maya54 is completely right about the First Amendment here. It’s a side issue, but I had the same reaction when I read the original story: No. A public university cannot expel a student summarily for expressing deeply offensive attitudes.
Meanwhile, the President announced yesterday that there was a new office being created in the Department of Health and Human Services to address the pressing issue of health workers being “forced” to assist in performing abortions or treating trans people despite the workers’ “religious or moral” objections. I can’t wait to see if this portends a change in policy towards other religious/moral - government conflicts, like people wearing a kippah or hijab in the military, or people refusing to help with random immigration enforcement. But I’m not holding my breath.
I’d forgotten about that video. Bubbles, glitter, puppies, popsicles, and pool toys are what college is about, right?
My husband just caught me watching it and said in all seriousness, “Wait, they’re all the same woman, right?” He though it was a spoof ala the Onion. When I said it was a real Alabama sorority recruiting video he said, “But where are all the black women?”