All UVa frats on suspension

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<p>The point is, it would be stupid to accuse such a very common and harmless act. It’s just normal affectionate behavior. Now, I must say that when I got such behavior for a girl I didn’t like, I felt disgusted at the slobber she would plant on my cheek. But when a cute girl I would like to go out with did the same, I felt flattered. Girls are exactly the same way, too. A cute boy will ellicit a different response than a creepy one, and the definition of cute vs. creepy will depend on the girl, and vary from girl to girl. There are no universal standards here that you use to make consistent, gender neutral law. </p>

<p>But it’s all part of a mating dance. It’s normal human behavior, not sexual assault. If we want to consider it as such pretty soon we will need burqas. This is why conflating rape with sexual asault is so stupid. People see through that.</p>

<p>And this, Sabina Erdley and Rolling Stone, is why you do due diligence before publishing inflammatory stories- because you might have plausible-sounding informants who are telling you things that are not true. When I initially read the story, it was clear to me that Erdley was relating what Jackie had told her. But I naively thought that Erdley would have done the obvious checks to falsify the narrative. </p>

<p>One huge problem that we have here – and it’s a problem that is somewhat embedded in the law, but not necessarily in the practical application of the law in courts and police departments, for better or worse – is that we are setting up a binary system – on the one hand, “rape,” and on the other hand lovely wonderful healthy sex. The problem is that there are many gradations of toxic sex that may or may not constitute rape in theory but are never prosecuted as rape in the real (i.e., not university) world. The world is full of ambivalent sex; I bet many posters here have experienced it, and I think it is especially prevalent among first and second year college students. Personally, I am not certain I had un-ambivalent sex in my first five years of sexual activity. Some degree of fraud is also a constant issue, especially among the young. Not to mention emotional coercion. (Fraud and coercion also void consent, even if it’s given.) </p>

<p>And there’s impaired sex, which we have been discussing to a fare-thee-well . . . but we still haven’t touched on the fact – and I think it’s a fact – that young people especially often get themselves impaired as a way of giving themselves permission to consent to things they would have trouble consenting to sober. I did that, too, and I know women did it, and that I took advantage of that. It was normal for real life: impairment wasn’t always consent, but a lot of the time it was. It was a big step in my personal maturity when I decided I wouldn’t do that any more – I wouldn’t do it to myself, and I wouldn’t participate if others were doing it. But it took a fair amount of experience to get to that point (see above re ambivalent sex).</p>

<p>There is also the problem that sex itself – the rape, if it’s that – takes a few minutes, while consent and its close cousin, the feeling of being harmed, of victimhood, are things that are dynamic over a much longer period of time. It is completely human nature for an enthusiastic yes to become an ambivalent yes at the critical moment and to become a “no” in retrospect. Or vice versa. (Upthread, someone asked someone else, “Do you think all men lie?” My answer would have been “100% of people who do something bad and are confronted about it lie, and so do lots of people who are accused of doing something bad, as well as lots of people who are accusing others.”) If someone is suffering the trauma of having been raped, I want to help her (or him), regardless of whether I think the alleged rapist committed a crime and should be sent to prison.</p>

<p>There are a few people, but only a few, who really do want to criminalize toxic sex. Most of us don’t want to throw people – actually, not really people, really just men – in prison for toxic sex. At the same time, most of us don’t want to do nothing about toxic sex, we want to do something to help our children avoid it at least to some extent. Some on moral/religious grounds – for all the reasons previously given, eliminating bad sex altogether probably results in something resembling chastity. What’s more, the burden of the prevalence of toxic sex among the young falls more heavily on young women – I am not sure why, but I am sure it does, maybe because men are still taught that any sex is essentially good sex – and functions as a real barrier to their success in the world. (I think LGBT kids also bear a disproportionate burden from toxic sex, whatever their sex or gender identity. Or at least GBT kids; the Ls in my world live charmed lives.) </p>

<p>So I think there are good institutional reasons for a college to try to do something about sexual hygiene, as it were. But it’s really better to get away from the dichotomy of rape (bad, criminal, prosecute) and consensual sex (good, leave alone). I think there is rape, the crime that deserves extensive prison time, and I think there are acres of gray areas that are not prosecutable and should not result in prison time but which a college is perfectly within its rights to police as an educational and institutional matter. </p>

<p>But, please, police wisely. I’m looking at you, University of Michigan.</p>

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<p>ooooh. I like it. I hadn’t thought of that but I agree. Certainly some do. That then changes the entire equation. I’ve said several times that consent can’t be given when incapacitated. I’ve also said that just drinking doesn’t mean incapacitation. I think as long as the person is “reasonably aware” that it isn’t rape. What level of intoxication that is is beyond my pay grade, but I firmly believe it exists. </p>

<p>@JHS Again, that is one of the best posts on this long thread</p>

<p>Yup. Looking more and more like a total hoax.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-students-challenge-rolling-stone-account-of-attack/2014/12/10/ef345e42-7fcb-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-students-challenge-rolling-stone-account-of-attack/2014/12/10/ef345e42-7fcb-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html?Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<ol>
<li><p>She gave a different name to her three friends than what she gave to her rape survivor friends.</p></li>
<li><p>The name did not match anyone from the University. No one by that name has attended the University.</p></li>
<li><p>Photos she texted to friends as her supposed date that night were actually photos of a high school classmate who said he barely knew Jackie and had not been to Charlottesville in 6 years.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>“young people especially often get themselves impaired as a way of giving themselves permission to consent to things they would have trouble consenting to sober.”</p>

<p>Right, which is where you get the distinction Consolation mentions. There’s a difference between choosing to be voluntarily impaired and let down your guard, and having that impairment thrust upon you (such as a date rape drug slipped into your drink). </p>

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<p>I am not sure what you mean by 100% inaccurate; I know what I meant though.</p>

<p>Look again at the post I was responding to, it was written as absolute, never can happen events, i.e., “…can’t get an erection.”</p>

<p>My point was it is 100% medically inaccurate that the statement applies to all men. There are men who get aroused when faced with great fear. And there men who can get aroused when visually incapacitated, which the poster is talking about. Really, unless you are taking vital signs, the average person cannot tell when someone is fully incapacitated to sleeping it off, but not totally useless.</p>

<p>It really is not my intention to try and convince you of this though. As I wrote in the post, do not listen to me, ask and discuss with this of your doctor if this is true. See what he or she says. No need to take my word for it. If I have the science wrong, your doctor will correct me. </p>

<p>BTW, I saw your post on face value. Agreed, one place to address is to make sure every accuser’s claim is investigated. I am all for that. </p>

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<p>Let me give you another small town: [Saratoga</a>, California.](<a href=“Audrie Pott: Boys admit sexually assaulting teen”>Audrie Pott: Boys admit sexually assaulting teen) A student at the high school got drunk and passed out at a party. Three boys penetrated her, took cell phone pictures and showed them to other students.</p>

<p>You may think this is a rare event, and such events are revealed when they happen. Nope. This event came to light after the girl killed herself. She couldn’t stand it any longer.</p>

<p>The boys got 30 days and 45 days in juvenile hall, served on weekends. Two of them are still at Saratoga High, or were last year. They may have graduated now. Meanwhile, Audrie Pott is still dead.</p>

<p>If you think that Saratoga is a hick town, think again.</p>

<p>Seems to me these events are happening all over, but we usually don’t hear about them.</p>

<p>@awcntdb re: post 2106. I already apologized and said I agree with you that my statement was medically inaccurate (that’s what I get for relying on my, and my friends, life experiences. </p>

<p>What I said I was disagreeing with was your contention about incapacitation not being on the continuum but only being when someone was unconscious.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/uva-professor-says-mural-sums-up-schools-cultural-issues/30143564”>http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/uva-professor-says-mural-sums-up-schools-cultural-issues/30143564&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes”. Mark Twain</p>

<p>So true.</p>

<p>According to this article, even in the face of emerging inconsistencies, the IFC president continues to believe that Jackie was assaulted by a fraternity member :</p>

<p><a href=“University of Virginia fraternities chief said 'Jackie' WAS raped | Daily Mail Online”>University of Virginia fraternities chief said 'Jackie' WAS raped | Daily Mail Online;

<p>"My point was it is 100% medically inaccurate that the statement applies to all men. There are men who get aroused when faced with great fear. "</p>

<p>So what – they still need to keep it in their pants. </p>

<p>@TV4caster - So many posts that I have not seen your other one you mentioned. No issue at all. I spring -oaded to forgive quickly when threads get this long because it is easy to miss stuff. I am essentially triaging how I answer posts and sometimes I answer out of timeline. Well, don’t we all? </p>

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<p>Why are the nationally reported stats so low then? There are many, many surveys, and whichever way you cut it, rape, as in non-toxic sex rape as DHS put it (I love that classification) has no more than 1% incidence. A few horror stories here and there are simply not enough to change that. </p>

<p>Also in any society about 1% of the total people will be sociopaths. Always have been, always will be. We can keep being surprised by that, but really, 1% of a society being sociopaths is not a sociopath epidemic. It is steady state. We may not like it, but the only way to solve it is to have Stalinist purges.</p>

<p>It’s not that sociopaths just impact young college girls, they impact you and me as well. I personally prefer to defend against the sociopaths by simply taking a little less risk, chosen in a very targeted manner. Doesn’t it bother you that the DoJ doesn’t run big campaigns showing young college kids what not to do if they don’t want to get raped? This whole don’t-blame-the-victim is fine after the fact, but why wouldn’t you tell a potential victim what her odds are? </p>

<p>But truth is, she will likely take the risk anyway. I feel that’s what parents have a hard time gettuing used to. Ultimately, parents can’t protect their kids from toxic sex. Kids will do what they will do half under peer pressure and half under the novelty of something that is forbidden and new. The shine will wear off after a while and kids will settle down. Parents need to let go.</p>

<p>“Kids will do what they will do half under peer pressure and half under the novelty of something that is forbidden and new. The shine will wear off after a while and kids will settle down. Parents need to let go.”</p>

<p>Well, that’s a real non-answer. Just “let go.” Let’s see how you feel when it’s your daughter.</p>

<p>JHS,</p>

<p>I want to congratulate and thank you on a very, very well written post that explains the landscape rather nicely. I only have one question. You want colleges to regulate (wisely, but regulate nevertheless) sexual practices of undergrads to moderate toxic sex. This is of course a worthy goal, but is it and should it be the purview of colleges? Undergrads are adults. If they didn’t go to college and joined the workforce, their employer wouldn’t be moderating their sexual behaviors, nor would they have any right to. (I doubt any employer can mandate that employees may not engage in toxic sex or else they get fired. Of course, criminal matters are different.) Universities are not even employers, they are the service providers, education being the service. While it is legitimate to have rules on campus, what about off campus behavior? And should universities moderate behavior of graduate students too when they are on campus? PhD candidates? Post Doc researchers? It will pretty soon get mighty messy, I think, if an university tries to dictate sexual behaviors to all the myriad people that make use of its services and use its properties. </p>

<p>Perhaps the logic here is that it is a continuum. 18 year olds are legally adults, but they are not really adults. May be real adulthood starts at … 21? This is why I am asking this - I honestly fail to see why parents are involved in trying to moderate the sex life of their adult kids. At what age do they stop that? (Do they ever? Why are my parents so worried about seeing their grandkids?) I believe that the more parents treat undergrads as little kids, the less undergrads will take responsibility for their actions, and perhaps one real solution is to let them sink or swim once they go to college?</p>

<p>If the incidence of rape is 1% of women per year, I don’t think that’s low; I think it’s horrifyingly high. Rape is a searing experience that leaves lifetime scars. If that’s happening to 90 women at UVa a year, that’s 90 too many.</p>

<p>SoWhat, you seem to be exercised about a bad policy that is leading to serious harm to some .001% of college men, while just shrugging about a situation that leads to serious harm to 1% of women. While I agree that the college sexual misconduct witchhunts that are happening on a few campuses to a few men need to be reined in, I also think we need to deal with the serious problem of true rape on campus.</p>

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<p>We all don’t do this. I don’t.</p>

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<p>CF, I would love to hear a solution that doesn’t criminalize or severely penalize merely toxic sex and doesn’t trample on civil liberties, for anyone. Is that a fair request?</p>

<p>Otherwise, I am all ears. Of course, the solution will have to change hearts and minds of natural sociopaths instead of mere boys behaving badly. If that can be cracked, we could even have a completely crime free society, so that would be super exciting.</p>

<p>How do we get there?</p>

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<p>PG, I completely understand that it is not a satisfying answer. I wish I had a better one.</p>

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<p>Bay, Having read your posts on this topic, I am pretty sure that you don’t. But the OCR and the Department of Education - the big guns - do. It is deeply troubling. </p>