<p>I’m getting that impression as well and its wrong. For those who are innocent with the word rapist attached to their name their life is over. America’s judicial system was not created by our founders to put every criminal behind bars but that is a price we pay to be truly free. </p>
<p>“The burden of proof in our judicial system does not rest on the defendant but on the accuser/prosecutor. It is not up to the accused to provide proof of their innocence but rather it is up to the accuser to provide proof of guilt.”</p>
<p>I can provide zero proof of wha happened to me when I was 14. Zero, zip, zilch. No torn clothing, no bruises, no physical evidence. (Mine would have fallen under sexual assault, not rape, hence nothing for DNA purposes.). Obviously, since this was years ago, no photos, videos, email messages or texts. It would have been my word against a 35 yo man’s. </p>
<p>But I know with every fiber of my being that it happened. What would you have done if I were your 14 yo daughter? </p>
<p>Because (in the absence of a psychiatrist testifying that she’s incapable of discerning reality), when you disbelieve Jackie, you disbelieve me. </p>
<p>I believe you.</p>
<p>And I am grateful to you and everyone who tells her story. Thank you.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Those are still the sociopaths. Their actions scream sociopath. They are not opportunists. You can certainly go after them. In fact, the criminal court will likely do nicely for all of these guys because it is a clear cut case of rape. But if you think you can change their minds and <em>prevent</em> the rape - for these guys are not engaging in toxic sex, they are raping - I would like to know how. That was my question. </p>
<p>Even in the current system these guys don’t get away, even outside college. But to compare these cases to what is the daily reality of college sex - debauchery as someone else said earlier mixed with a heavy dose of toxic sex - is missing the point. I agree that you can prevent toxic sex, but I believe you can only prosecute the real sex.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If you seriously think a handful of high profile cases (if in fact there are, as so far you only provided high school cases) mean that college kids just exploit drunk girls with no bystander doing anything, you are out of touch with reality. How many such cases are there? What’s the incidence? This is like looking for the lost coin where there is light, and not where the coin got lost. Look, in the reported cases of rape in colleges it is almost always in a private situation, one on one, between people who know each other, but with a heavy dose of alcohol thrown in. </p>
<p>This is one of my pet peeves. People read these high profile stories that are hand picked to be sensational, that show humanity in the worst possible light, and then think it is the norm, and fixing them with some feel-good solutions will fix the whole issue. Meanwhile, the real issue is totally different, I try going there (binge drinking and hook up) but no one wants to. It’s always up to the bystanders to save the day. It has nothing to do with doing vodka shots till you drop. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Why not? Anyone doing their due diligence with respect to the sexual misconduct at UVa will see that there is, indeed, an undeniably large problem. I’ve already posted this link, but I’ll post it again. People cannot wish away the fact that Jackie’s story (true or false) is not remotely the only incident at UVa.</p>
<p><a href=“Rape at UVA: Readers Say Jackie Wasn't Alone”>http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/rape-at-uva-readers-say-jackie-wasnt-alone-20141121</a></p>
<p>Nevermind.</p>
<p>Going to be a big storm.</p>
<p>CC doesn’t make me feel good about humanity.</p>
<p>I have been reading a long time. It is rare to see changes in attitudes but it sometimes seems to happens. I think sometimes you make that happen. Thank you for sticking around.</p>
<p>On this thread, even though it’s been relatively civil, I’ve been really struck by the name calling. I keep reading “stupid” over and over. That really bothers me. ymmv</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I will honor your request. However, I am always perplexed by people like you, as it just never occurs to me to not engage with someone because I do not to like what they think about something. Just seems so silly, unintellectual, and middle school-ish. Yet, you say you are a mature adult. But, it works for you I guess. Definitely does not work for me.</p>
<p>I really do wonder what people will say if does turn out that Jackie made this up in one form or another. It would surely have to be more than “Oh, too bad, nothing to see here now” given all the damage that would have been wrought to innocent people. </p>
<p>Actually, I sure do hope she is telling truth then at least there would be something concrete about this situation relative her story. However, at the same time, I would hope other females in a similar situation learn that the media is not the place to make accusations and fight your battles for a whole host of reasons. </p>
<p>Anyway, thanks for responding and engaging my previous posts.</p>
<p>I don’t doubt you being a victim and I feel for you and I don’t mean to diminish your suffering yet the burden of proof still lies on the accuser. Jackie’s story is falling apart, the picture of the boy is from her high school and so and so on. You can’t just charge and ruin someone else’s life based on no facts because people do lie.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes. And it should be in a system like ours where everyone is believed innocent until proven guilty. That does mean many guilty will escape. That does mean many will be harmed and never get justice. But that’s the best of all the worse systems we could have constructed.</p>
<p>:) i can’t comment on the above. I promised somebody. </p>
<p>Awctndb, have a good night. </p>
<p>Bengalmom and others, you wouldn’t have believed Liz Securro either (the woman who was gang raped at Phi Psi UVA in 1984). Until the guy wrote her a letter 20 years later apologizing. </p>
<p>It’s small and mean of me, but I hope one of the rapists comes forward and apologizes just so you all have egg on your faces. In fact, this thread is helping me crystallize that I never really confronted my perpetrator and maybe I need to. </p>
<p>“really do wonder what people will say if does turn out that Jackie made this up in one form or another. It would surely have to be more than “Oh, too bad, nothing to see here now” given all the damage that would have been wrought to innocent people.” </p>
<p>You would have a point here if she had named actual people. But she didn’t. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I will not even pretend to understand how you feel. I do not and cannot. But, the entire world believing you still does not change the fact that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. </p>
<p>That system was developed precisely because the colonists had experienced being punished simply by being accused of crimes, even though they were innocent. It is not, as if the system were created without experiencing the intractable injustice of the former system.</p>
<p>dstark, Thanks, you have a good night as well. </p>
<p>PG: Thank you for posting on this thread.</p>
<p>TV4caster, thanks.</p>
<p>SoWhat: I am not now, nor have I ever been, someone to “moderate” my children’s sexual activities. Except in one respect: I made certain that each of them had a big box of condoms when leaving for college. I knew that they could get as many as they wanted for free once they got there, but I wanted to be sure they had them, and I wanted to be sure they knew that I was OK with that. We also talked a fair amount about sexual morality, along lines that would be recognizable from my posts here (I hope): Do things intentionally, own your mistakes but don’t let them define you, don’t be quick to judge other people, recognize that people, including yourselves, can be hurt emotionally by sex and what surrounds it, and make certain that you are being kind and respectful of their feelings. Sex is important, but not worth making yourself into a bad person. They already knew that, though.</p>
<p>I don’t think colleges should be trying to regulate sex, but I don’t mind at all if they engage in a little education, and I think they constantly have to referee broken love affairs, stalkers, bad roommate behavior, etc. Eighteen-year-olds are legal adults, but that’s about it. I knew that at 18, and I know it even more now. And residential colleges have to provide a home for them 24-7 (unlike an employer who can say “Work on my time, and do whatever you like when you leave here.”). So I think colleges should try to educate kids about basic etiquette of living communally in close quarters, and do what needs to be done to resolve tough situations, including rapes, in a way that fosters the best learning environment for everyone. </p>
<p>I thought the NZ video was great in the education department, if maybe a little broad in places. (Given how out of it the woman looked, I would be stunned if her friends let her leave the bar with that guy. And if I were the roommate, I would not have invited the guy to stay overnight, even as a clever ploy.)</p>
<p>Cardinal Fang: In my world of halftones, there is real difference between two people holding hands and jumping down the rabbit hole together, even if each knows that it’s maybe stupid to jump down a rabbit hole, and taking advantage of someone to do things she will regret the next day. The former is fun, if not terribly healthy; the latter not. OK, in real life sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference ex ante; maybe you only find out which you did ex post. But if your read of the situation tends towards the regret-tomorrow scenario, you have to stop.</p>
<p>However, until you have been hauled into court based on one massive lie to have your life turned upside down because of vengeance you will then understand why the system works the way it does. </p>
<p>I believe rape happens but that does not mean there is enough proof to convict in all cases. I also believe there are cases where outright lies are told to destroy an innocent person. So he said she said is not enough proof to convict. There are also people who come forward to take back everything they said where a person sat in jail for years for a crime they did not commit.</p>
<p>The right messages are falling on deaf ears and the wrong messages are getting a lot of play. What’s driving this thread nowhere is folks who want so desperately to argue, score some points. I can shrug my shoulders, but it’s dang annoying. (And I think some of you know it and are lusting in it, “intoxicated” by it.)</p>
<p>The college has a responsibility to its community. As outlined, when there is a sex-related complaint to the college, it must take certain actions. Many of you don’t like that. You want to leap to the conclusion the problem is small and the real risk is women will misreport. (I’m not sure why we are stuck on that aspect. Of course, it’s possible, but it doesn’t change the reality that there is non-consensual sex.)</p>
<p>The college must respond with a trained committee. It’s flawed, but it’s what we’ve got, right now. Some schools have responded improperly which has, on one hand. led to govt scrutiny, (for too little action as well as improper process.) And, in some cases, it has led one aggrieved party to sue. Does that mean the idea of tackling these complaints is wrong? No. Does it mean they are “policing” sexual activity? No. Does it need to be said whether or not we inquire of our kids what they do? Huh? No. </p>
<p>This is the college community and the complainer has the right to report to the outside police. Whether or not she chooses to, the college still has an obligation to explore and come to some conclusion. They are not serving as a criminal justice system. It’s the internal response. And they have both that right and that mandate.</p>
<p>Now, it must seem nice that one quotes stats- and it must feel pretty “intoxicating” to parse those stats to the point where we don’t even have general agreement which are valid. But does it matter if it’s 20 accusers or 80 or whatever? Or has gone up or down? No. To me, doesn’t change the fact that the college has an obligation to investigate complaints of non-consensual sexual activity. If some colleges have F’ed it up, go after them. </p>
<p>As for drunken co-consent, don’t let that distract from the issue at hand: lack of consent. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>This is where you and I disagree, but that is all right. I just feel that if more than half of 18 year olds can work and move out of their parents’ houses to lead their own life, the minority that ends up in the colleges should be expected to be just as independent. Often, though, they are helicoptered. In the Slate story, for example, the mom of CB got a hold of her 19-year old daughter’s diary, read that CB is doing drugs, alcohol, and having sex, and scared the 19 year old so much that she had to claim that no, she didn’t have sex, she was raped. Then the mom drove her to college during summer and had her file charges (but not with the cops). What kind of a mature adult is this kid growing up to be, and what kind of a kid is this mom thinking she is raising?</p>