All UVa frats on suspension

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<p>Of course, this is the case.</p>

<p>If Jackie turns out to have provided less than a truthful account, the effect on how you view another accusation would be unaffected because you did not arrive at wondering if Jackie is telling the truth by guessing or by just not believing her. Things did not add up, and you arrived at your disbelief through logic. You are not going to just abandon that thought process and for anyone to think otherwise is ludicrous.</p>

<p>So, you can move on now to the next accusation to hit the media, and you will just do the same. You will believe it, and if things add up, you will continue to believe it. In fact, if things add up, you will believe it more strongly because it will provide validation of your logical thinking, i.e., the skills worked in two vastly different situations. Therefore, the next accuser may actually get the benefit of even stronger support after the initial accusation by not having inconsistencies that mushroom day-by-day. </p>

<p>It does seem that some posters do not understand the basic fact that thinking people do not like to being taken for a ride, regardless of whom is taking them for said ride. It does not matter if that person is a victim of a crime or an advocacy group peddling a cause. If things do not add as initially presented, but you are told later it does not matter if it is true, it just comes off as a bait and switch operation. People are sorry when someone is a victim of a crime, but being a victim is no excuse to ride people and people are not going to put up with it.</p>

<p>There is no magic bullet age of maturity but at what age is it appropriate to be an adult? Maturity of course comes with age and life experiences but at certain point you are an adult. Why not make the age 40? At 40 you are much more wise than even at 30 and 30 much wiser than 18. The problem is when alcohol is illegal for college age students there is no way to learn to drink responsibly because it is underground and illegal. </p>

<p>I also agree with the poster who said boys definitely do not corner the market on seducing girls. A few years back I was on spring break and I was astonished watching the many young girls not of college age prancing around the beach at night without any parents in sight chasing the boys and yelling things that in my day would have had the word “slut” attached to your name. I am astonished as to some of the girl’s behavior today and I am more fearful for my son down the road than I am for my daughter. </p>

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<p>Some people posted the students (the guys’ names) who were supposedly in her anthro section, I have not a clue if the names are accurate or not, but that is the problem, as they are identified as such. Too many places and classes and names are caught up here and no one has a clue what is what. That alone should tell us we really should not know any of it. </p>

<p>I understand that what was done by Jackie and what was done by RS are in question. But still…lots of innocent names all over the place. Just not fair, in my view.</p>

<p>As I think about this case more you have to wonder why a woman who still has not pressed charges and never went to the police talked to a reporter to have her story tried in the public court of opinion. If I were raped, never pressed charges I don’t think I would do an expose publicly at a school I still attended. I doubt she sought out the reporter and imagine the reporter sought out her but you have to wonder why would the reporter do that to a fellow female who kept quiet for years who knew the story would be explosive and carnage would happen where the student is still a student. If you are a victims rights advocate I would think the better channel would be the police rather than using a magazine to advance your cause as to not further harm the rape victim.</p>

<p>@bengalmombengal “I was on spring break and I was astonished watching the many young girls not of college age prancing around the beach at night without any parents in sight chasing the boys and yelling things that in my day would have had the word “slut” attached to your name.”</p>

<p>And what word would you attach to the name of the boys yelling those same sorts of things at the girls?</p>

<p>She was connected to the writer by Emily Renda who works for UVA as a rape advocate and graduated last year. The writer was looking for a rape story involving frat boys at an elite southern university. A dramatic one. She basically held auditions and Jackie got the part and then she tried to back out but that was not allowed. It’s really awful. She was used by an advocate/writer, ironically. </p>

<p>"Jackie contradicted an earlier interview, saying Thursday that she did not know whether the attacker she knew actually was a member of Phi Kappa Psi. “He never said he was in Phi Psi,” she said, while noting that she was positive that the date function and attack occurred at the fraternity house. “I know it was Phi Psi, because a year afterward, my friend pointed out the building to me and said that’s where it happened.”</p>

<p>From the WaPo interview. A year later an unidentified friend pointed at the building? That’s how she knows what frat. Really?</p>

<p>It was the girls not the boys. We saw girls wearing t-shirts with “Slut” written across them and who bought them and if their parents didn’t at least you would think their mom’s saw them in the dirty laundry pile. If it were the boys I would say they were being crude to say the least and totally disgusting but the girls were screaming across the beach at strange boys for sex well??? In my day no such self respecting female I ever knew would do such a thing. </p>

<p>On another note: while colleges are having sex seminars including sex porn stars visiting campuses they are reducing the standards for sexual consent. Seems like colleges are sending mixed signals to students.</p>

<p>Oh o.k., so “crude” and “disgusting” for the boys but character assassination for the girls.</p>

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The woman’s power of seduction is nothing new bengalmom and it’s reflected in the stories of Jezebel and Delilah.</p>

<p>The difference between a typical rape case and many of the cases which are being discussed (Brown, U. of Michigan, to some extent UVa) is that not only is the accusation not substantiated by evidence, but that there is actual evidence to exonerate the accused that was completely ignored. For instance, in the U. of Michigan case discussed here, there was a roommate that was in the room the entire time, the couple was quite noisy during the act, and the roommate wrote a facebook message complaining about them at the time–apparently it sounded like a normal sexual encounter. In the Brown case, the couple was interrupted, witnesses (both her friends and his) saw the woman bound up a winding staircase after the act (invalidating the claim that she was incapacitated), and conversed with her right after they were interrupted and she acted like someone only slightly embarrassed to be “that girl” that hooks up with someone, not someone who had been through any sort of trauma. The UVa case has some more bizarre details. Yes, it’s believable that a rape victim might not remember exactly where they were after such a traumatic event (although they should acknowledge that before placing definite blame.) However, the story she told before the alleged incident happened, before her memory could have been affected by a rape, was bizarre and unsubstantiated. She told her friends the name of this guy before the incident, the name of a chemistry major at UVa, and that name didn’t match anyone at UVa. The picture that the alleged perpetrator apparently sent the victim’s friend was actually of a guy from high school that hadn’t been in Charlottesville for 6 years, and was going to college in other state, and barely knew Jackie. There’s a lot of shades of Lenay Kekule’ (fake ND girlfriend) here. The other stuff about the party itself that this occurred has been disputed, but as people said, it’s difficult to evaluate that if there was a party the week before or the week after. But pretty much every single detail Jackie provided has been disputed, and in many cases, was bizarre on its own. For these cases, it looks like the accused could actually be proven innocent, and that is why it is so scary that the cases were pursued anyway so vigorously. What happens when there is no witnesses to the sexual encounter?</p>

<p>So no, I don’t think if you disbelieve Jackie, you automatically disbelieve Pizzagirl or other people who have been through trauma but who don’t have substantiating evidence. (And yes, I find Pizzagirl’s story convincing and I am deeply sorry she had to go through that.)</p>

<p>However, there is a difference between innocent and ‘not guilty’ (even by the standard of preponderance of evidence rather than beyond a shadow of a doubt). Before you destroy someone’s life by expelling them or putting them in jail, you need some reasonable standard of evidence. If you are talking about getting someone fired, I think it would depend on whether that job itself would enable a perpetratror (e.g., Sunday school teacher makes it easier for an adult to interact with potential victims, so I would push them out of their position there.) Testimony from the alleged victim provides some evidence, and hopefully there aren’t giant holes in the story or contradictory testimony. Testimony from people that saw the alleged victim afterwards looking traumatized helps the alleged victim’s case, as does things like a rape kit in certain kinds of cases. In cases where consent was validated by alcohol, it would help if someone actually saw the person in the intoxicated state. Even with such evidence, the conclusion of whether it is convincing is scarily subjective. I watch those Dateline murder mystery shows all the time, and most of the time I disagree with the verdict (in both directions.)</p>

<p><a href=“Rolling Stone, Sabrina Rubin Erdely: The Washington Post inches closer to calling the UVA gang rape story a fabrication.”>http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/12/10/rolling_stone_sabrina_rubin_erdely_the_washington_post_inches_closer_to.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>After reading the latest WaPo story I’m leaning toward the same conclusion as @ailinsh1, and it now appears that Hannah Rosin is also skeptical. I believe the whole account of what happened that night is a fabrication: There is no “Drew”, Jackie herself was the person who texted her friends on his behalf, there was no date with a lifeguard or chemistry student, no dinner at the inn, no premeditated gang rape at the Psi Phi House. </p>

<p>Did something terrible of a sexual nature happen to Jackie somewhere at sometime involving someone? Quite likely. Of course I’m curious, but that’s really not the point. I hope for Jackie’s sake that her parents, her doctor, the police, the school, someone gets the real story so that Jackie can emerge from this tangle of delusion and start to heal.</p>

<p>How Jackie’s story endured and evolved over the course of 2 years without anyone noticing (or if they noticed, speaking out about) the discrepancies is another mystery. I don’t think anyone, the administration, the Dean of sexual misconduct, the victim advocacy group, her parents did her any favors by failing to question the inconsistencies in her accounts. There must be a middle ground between ruthless grilling of a rape victim and accepting every accusation as gospel truth. There must be a middle ground between trusting the word of a rape victim and abandoning due process for the accused.</p>

<p>I’ve found the discussions on this thread fascinating and stimulating. My belief is that investigating adjudicating rape and sexual assault is something that only our law enforcement and legal entities can do. </p>

<p>College tribunals no matter how well meaning just don’t have the will or resources to uncover complex backstories, and it disturbs me that the government, through Title IX, is forcing colleges to assume the roll of investigator, prosecutor, jury and judge. </p>

<p>I’d like to see these funds redirected to help the police build sensitive rape investigation programs, teams and procedures – perhaps in partnerships with the colleges. There’s a lot of work to do here, but it seems to me that building parallel quasi legal systems within the colleges, will come back and bite us when the fallibilities (as pointed out by many on this thread) become apparent.</p>

<p>After reading the WaPo story (Ohhhhhhh, THAT’S what investigative journalism looks like), I too thought that this sounds like the Manti Te’o story. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe that rape happens. Of course it does, its happen to family members and friends of mine. Just as it doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that people die from leukemia. </p>

<p>It does mean the Erdely and Rolling Stone should be absolutely ashamed of themselves and deserve the full force of disparagement and whatever legal actions are taken against them. I think it is likely that she (Erdely) did “pick” the name of the Frat on purpose because it has political associations previously mentioned. She saw it as a way to embarrass politicians that she didn’t like. </p>

<p>When we talk about Jackie’s story changing, I think it’s important to remember we are not privy to what Dean Eramo was told. Nor is UVA in a position to comment on it. </p>

<p>What’s the parallel with firing an employee before the court rules? Do you allow for in-house action?</p>

<p>The administration for UVA should have access to official class rolls, the aquatic center employment records, and the names of members in each fraternity. By using these resources UVA should be able to fact check each of Jackie’s various stories. </p>

<p>Yes, but UVA is not in a position at this point to come forth and say anything publicly about the truth or not-truth of those claims, one way or the other. So expecting to find that in the media is silly.</p>

<p>I think this is all going to take a while for the facts of the matter to come out in the wash, and breathlessly expecting the WashPost to express “the truth” where RS didn’t is futile. It will all come to iight, eventually. </p>

<p>It’s notable to me that it’s been Phi Psi who said - we did not have a party the night of such-and-such, and we did not have any brothers employed as lifeguards. Note carefully that <em>UVA</em> hasn’t said those things. </p>

<p>" I think it is likely that she (Erdely) did “pick” the name of the Frat on purpose because it has political associations previously mentioned. She saw it as a way to embarrass politicians that she didn’t like."</p>

<p>The irony of offering something that is complete speculation on your part when you are criticizing an article for offering speculation! </p>

<p>If you are referring to Cantor, if Erdeley had wished to make a direct link, she could have easily put in the article “Phi Psi at UVA, which includes such illustrious people as the sons of Eric Cantor.” AFAIK, she didn’t. </p>

<p>“How Jackie’s story endured and evolved over the course of 2 years without anyone noticing (or if they noticed, speaking out about) the discrepancies is another mystery. I don’t think anyone, the administration, the Dean of sexual misconduct, the victim advocacy group, her parents did her any favors by failing to question the inconsistencies in her accounts.”</p>

<p>But you don’t know what are the discrepancies. You don’t know what’s been picked up and (mis)reported by others, whether it’s Erdeley/RS, WashPo, the DailyMail, or whoever. For all we know, she claimed being forced to perform oral the whole time to Dean Eramo, etc. and it’s Erdeley who made it more dramatic. Or her story did change. We don’t know, unless we’re interviewing her and have access to what she told the Dean.</p>

<p>The other WashPost story seems weird, too. Who starts texting with their suitemate’s date who you’ve not met yet? I don’t believe those roommates - that’s odd. </p>

<p>Coy Barefoot posted a link to this article this morning. Provides a good summary chronology of the case and developments, without comment. </p>

<p><a href=“Everything We Know About the UVA Rape Case [Updated]”>http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/12/everything-we-know-uva-rape-case.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>This is Sabrina Rubin Erdeley being grilled about “Drew” and his gang of buddies including Armpit, Blanket, Cookie, and Biker in a Slate podcast as the story started to unravel and before it totally blew up and she stopped answering questions. Interestingly, she also told an interviewer that she had a very strong BS detector. Yeah, me too.</p>

<p>“I don’t want to say much about them as individuals but I’ll just say that this particular fraternity, Phi Kappa Psi — it’s really emblematic in a lot of ways of sort of like elitist fraternity culture. It’s considered to be a kind of top-tier fraternity at University of Virginia. It’s considered to be a really high-ranking fraternity, in part because they’re just so incredibly wealthy. Their alumni are very influential, you know, they’re on Wall Street, they’re in politics.”</p>

<p>Also, this has nothing to do with believing or not believing Jackie since we don’t know at all what she says happened. Something obviously did. But, what it was does matter here and we don’t know.</p>