<p>I hate guns. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf”>http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf</a></p>
<p>I think it is page 3. While it is true according to this survey, or used to be true that non students ages 18-24 were raped or sexually assaulted at higher rates than students ages 18-24, it is not true that students ages 18-24 are raped or sexually assaulted at al lower rates than other Americans.</p>
<p>I know this has been touched on previously (perhaps specifically with Jesse Matthews), but one issue I have with the college disciplinary system trying to adjudicate rape is the fact that these rapists (let’s assume the fact of guilt here), whether expelled or suspended or otherwise sanctioned, then go out into the community at large, or another campus, to perhaps rape again. And even if the new college administration knows the student has been kicked out or suspended due to a sexual assault issue, there is no indication that they then warn the campus at large–“Hey, this dude got kicked out of State U for improper sexual conduct, we thought you should know.” It may be illegal to do so due to privacy concerns, I don’t know.</p>
<p>I see from a lot of the cases here that those who are expelled or even suspended and then transfer may have difficulty getting into a new school (certainly seems to be the case of those men who have filed lawsuits), but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be a danger to a co-worker or neighbor. But there is another category I find more concerning–students who withdraw as part of a deal.</p>
<p>I don’t know how common this actually is, but I would not be surprised if it happens more than we know as it saves face and work for the college (no official complaint need be processed, man is removed from campus which is what the victim wants, no tribunal, and man gets to continue his education elsewhere with no black mark on his record). See the case below:</p>
<p><a href=“Former Student Sues Brown University Over Rape Accusation - The New York Times”>Former Student Sues Brown University Over Rape Accusation - The New York Times;
<p><a href=“GoLocalProv | EXCLUSIVE: Secret Recording in Brown Rape Case”>http://www.golocalprov.com/news/brown-mccormick/</a></p>
<p>Note: he did file a lawsuit against Brown for coercing him into this deal, but I could see other accused students thinking this kind of option is a way to make it all go away, guilty or not. In fact, it would probably be extremely attractive to the guilty as a way to get away clean. </p>
<p>What really bothers me about this case is that the victim and her father said, “If you withdraw, we won’t press criminal charges.” It bothers me because it is a threat (and the lawsuit was settled out of court with a payout to McCormick), but more so because IF this man was guilty of rape, as the woman alleged, WHY would she and her family be fine with letting him transfer to another school with a clear record where thousands of unsuspecting women would be living next door, taking class, or going on dates with this guy? For the record, McCormick says he did not do what is accused of and was never formally accused of any crime or campus misconduct, and I am not insinuating/implying otherwise. There are articles out there that theorize this was a false accusation, but I don’t want to go there right now.</p>
<p>I guess it also goes back to the question posed earlier—what do the victims of sexual assault want out of this process? In this case, I guess she just wanted him gone and out of her sight/environment, but it bothers me that there was no thought as to future possible victims. The school obviously just wanted it all to go away and not to p*** off the wealthy donor. So the family is pleased and Brown is pleased, the accused moves to a new campus, and his new classmates are…in danger from a rapist? Or not? And no one—not the accuser, or her family, or the old college, or the new college–cares either way?</p>
<p>Sorry for being long and rambling.</p>
<p>BP, if the girl does not bring this to the police she has cut off that avenue. In the meantime, some of us want campus protections and actions.</p>
<p>I know the McCormick case, DH knew Burch. Complete travesty- but recognize the power it’s claimed her father held over the school. I have reason to suspect the father’s power was more than his personal donations.</p>
<p>But the cases that come to the public’s attention are a portion of those reviewed by colleges. Only some get media attention, only some lead to lawsuits. Many do not lead to expulsion or some censure of the accused. </p>
<p>"Without T9, I suppose your girl could just hole up in her room, Or maybe drop out, pending the police conclusions. How do we protect her ability to use the campus, for that education and her life there? Why, we could come up with a policy that defines and clarifies…wait! That’s T9! "</p>
<p>My college daughter has no title 9 protection when she is home for summer vacation.</p>
<p>How do we as a society protect her right to walk down the main street of my town if she’s attacked by a perp in our town? How do we protect her from running into the alleged perp at the local diner, rec center, post office, etc.? Um, I think that’s called the criminal justice system. Which is the same thing she’ll have to rely upon the day she graduates from college.</p>
<p>So what about my other daughter who is still in high school? And my wife? What about their rights?</p>
<p>Look, my son has a lawyer mom and a lawyer dad. So I’m really not worried about some academic Inspector Clouseau coming after him. I’ll rip that gal to shreds. If she wants to charge my kid with rape she’ll need to bring a real cop and a D.A. to the proceeding. But not every college boy has access to the same resources. </p>
<p>If the college wants to tell my son to stay away from the girl, fine. If they try to kick my kid out of the school, game on!</p>
<p>I am anti-gun, but found the article interesting. I think much depends on the campus and much depends on what happened. A campus of 42,000 is going to be very different than a campus of 2500. Pretty easy to “separate” two kids with issues on a campus of 42,000 than a campus with 2500. I think one of the deepest questions colleges and universities have to ask is “do with think given the information that this kid pose a threat to other students” and that will depend on what happened. </p>
<p>Northwesty, </p>
<p>I don’t know if you live anywhere near Seattle…doesn’t matter. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/investigations/2014/11/26/spd-leaves-most-rape-kit-evidence-on-the-shelf/70124462/”>http://www.king5.com/story/news/local/investigations/2014/11/26/spd-leaves-most-rape-kit-evidence-on-the-shelf/70124462/</a></p>
<p>I think the colorado college link is interesting. If boys think they have problems now, just wait until the girls start shooting. Do the girls have to ask Yes? No? Or can the girls just shoot a gun in the middle of the act?</p>
<p>" It would be fine for he to just take her chances of running into him? (Dorm floor, dorm, cafeteria, classes or just out and about.) If she does, she should what? Leave the library, eat at another time, drop the class, etc? (and not expect similar accommodations by him.) If she asked to change dorms, to avoid him or have some adjustment to her class schedule, you wouldn’t expect any cooperation from the college, but you’d assure her the police were investigating? Yow."</p>
<p>Uh, you do realize that is EXACTLY what happens in real life, that often the perp and victim “run into each other”? That is what happened with my young adult relative who was raped by another relative. The guy was not arrested until DNA evidence came back, and had contact with the victim multiple times per week because there was no basis for a restraining order. He was fully aware that she was pressing charges, and continued to harass her. Because of the family connection, and the poverty of all involved, there was no way to make happen what would have happened if they had money and the potential for distance.</p>
<p>Part of this is understanding to what degree people have a right to a college education, and a private organization has a responsibility to police itself. If the student is not arrested pending an investigation, how could a college “protect” the victim?</p>
<p>Not every person has access to the same resources, be they professional or personal. </p>
<p>I find it difficult to believe that someone could undergo a traumatic experience such as rape, and function well enough in the short-term such that the <em>only</em> thing they would be worried about would be actually seeing the perp - not the location, not someone who looks like him, or is on the same team, or lived in the same dorm… Many students end up taking time off for family issues, I would think no matter who raped a student, that student should have a right to take some time off and regroup, or consider some changes to start the healing process.</p>
<p>The victim shouldn’t <em>have to</em> see the perp, but on the other hand, she does <em>have to</em> prove it was him to get him kept away from her.</p>
<p>My college daughter has no title 9 protection when she is home for summer vacation.
Correct. Unless, I believe, a fellow student assaults her over summer. T9 is about the colleges, the college community. </p>
<p>Because T9 came about where the feds intersect with the colleges (and k-12 public education; right now not going back to check those details,) it does refer to college association. Not your Main St. Some groups (those dreaded advocates and activists) are, in fact, working in other communities.</p>
<p>Ugh I had never read about the McCormick case. Frotunately the student that he landed at Bucknell with cash in his pocket. This is telling: </p>
<p>
[quote]
Judge William E. Smith of Federal District Court in Providence, R.I., questioned why Brown never reported the alleged attack to the police. “The thought that with all the people involved in this matter at different levels, a determination is made to not tell law enforcement, even the Brown Police Department — I’m having trouble getting that,” Judge Smith said, according to The Associated Press. He also characterized the lawsuit as “a mess” and told Mr. McCormick’s lawyer, J. Scott Kilpatrick, that some of the assertions appeared to be unsubstantiated.{/quote]</p>
<p>Fortunately it sounds like daddy had deep pockets but unfortunately both the accused and the accuser are forever in the internet annals. </p>
<p>RH, you and NW want the same sort of protections T9 offers on campus to be available in your home communities. Many of us do. But it’s not the job of T9, itself. Nor does it negate T9 that it doesn’t cover your home areas. It would be some other regulation. </p>
<p>Here’s one of the Dear Colleague Letters (DCL.) The page used to link also to another DCL, that has been changed and we’d need to look for it.
<a href=“http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.pdf”>http://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/letters/colleague-201104.pdf</a></p>
<p>“…the school’s Title IX investigation is different from any law enforcement investigation, and a law enforcement investigation does not relieve the school of its independent Title IX obligation to investigate the conduct. The specific steps in a school’s investigation will vary depending upon the nature of the allegations, the age of the student or students involved (particularly in elementary and secondary schools), the size and administrative structure of the school, and other factors. Yet as discussed in more detail below, the school’s inquiry must in all cases be prompt, thorough, and impartial.”</p>
<p>Women (and men) have other protections outside of school environments.
Title IX tries to prevent gender discrimination in schools. Its most famous application was to sports.
A hostile climate to women in schools constitutes gender discrimination, and unless schools do a good
job mitigating sexual assaults they will be deemed to be fostering a hostile climate and placed under Title IX sanction.</p>
<p>Here’s my understanding. The only official Title IX penalty is to prevent the school’s ability to receive Federal funds. I believe this includes research funds (NSF, NIH), Pell grants, and students loans (I believe today almost all undergraduate loans are from the Federal government, and even previously when there were private loans most were government guaranteed). This penalty has never been levied, but there’s no need to. It is no exaggeration to say this is effectively a death sentence even for schools with billions like Harvard. No school will take any risk in this dimension.</p>
<p>There are other laws that govern gender discrimination and hostile climate in the work place, so your daughter has protections there. Not the same sort, but they do cover gender discrimination, sexual harassment, etc. Some companies require employees to report romantic relationship to HR to avoid harassment, so there is some monitoring even of sexual matters. Not an HR lawyer, so not really sure of the details.</p>
<p>To date, the government has not successfully asserted the power to police hostile climate in the home,
so you’re right about that. Not even sure what the penalty would be - kick the offending sibling/parent out of the house? Not the society I’d like to live in.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>M2L: what makes you think that they are conservative positions?</p>
<p>Last I checked, Harvard Law’s faculty is anything but ‘conservative’. Heck, calling Alan Desrshowitz, a signatory to the objections, a convervative would be fightin’ words in Cambfridge. 
</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/14/rethink-harvard-sexual-harassment-policy/HFDDiZN7nU2UwuUuWMnqbM/story.html”>http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/10/14/rethink-harvard-sexual-harassment-policy/HFDDiZN7nU2UwuUuWMnqbM/story.html</a></p>
<p>Guys – I’m a lawyer. I fully understand HOW title ix has been applied to rape adjudications in college.</p>
<p>My point is that such application is STUPID. It is a bad policy that doesn’t work. Totally not required by the statute, but an administrative over-reach by the OCR. The “Dear Colleague” letters aren’t written (like the law) by Congress; they’re written by a bunch of DC bureaucrats. And a lots of even smarter lawyers than me (like the Harvard and Yale law profs) think the policy is stupid too.</p>
<p>I understand that title ix regulates sex discrimination on college campuses. It is a huge leap to say that rape (not inappropriate behavior but RAPE!!) is an issue of educational gender discrimination. That is a complete crock.</p>
<p>RAPE is a crime of violence. It is a class A felony. Not an instance of hostile educational environment. Seriously.</p>
<p>@al2simon " I don’t want to distract from the other points you made, but suggesting that students should arm themselves with guns while on campus is a horrible idea. It may be a constitutional right and possible in many parts of the country, but the college hearing process of almost every college would and should immediately expel any student found with a gun."</p>
<ol>
<li>I am not really in favor of guns on campus, except as perhaps a very last resort.</li>
<li>When I say weapons, I am also thinking of tasers and pepper spray, or anything used for self-defense.</li>
<li>My purpose is to illustrate how people talk about women needing to be responsible for themselves, but then want to prevent them from utilizing tools that can neutralize a man’s size and strength advantage.</li>
<li>I also want to highlight the hypocrisy of people who are all about the constitution, but only selectively when it suits their particular purpose</li>
<li>I also want to highlight the hypocrisy of people who support broad gun rights in almost every other situation, but don’t want women on campus to have them</li>
</ol>
<p>The broad point is that we need to find ways to reduce the number of these incidents, and also to effectively identify and prosecute perpetrators when it does happen. The endless excuses for why we always do nothing, and that should not change, is no longer a viable solution. Something needs to be done, so try to offer some solutions and not just barriers.</p>
<p>NW: we hear you. And some of us still disagree. Sorry, but I do not see how you cannot track this. Let the police deal with the criminal aspect and the college work on its environment. This perpetual back and forth and endless, “well, I think” is annoying to us, too. Your Main St isn’t covered by Title IX-- we get that, too. </p>
<p>Btw, other folks: The DCL explains it’s engagement in this. Sexual harassment can occur when…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not sure where you are getting your info, but I have heard many ‘conservatives’ claim that guns on campus should be allowed.</p>
<p>“I understand that title ix regulates sex discrimination on college campuses. It is a huge leap to say that rape (not inappropriate behavior but RAPE!!) is an issue of educational gender discrimination. That is a complete crock.”</p>
<p>So, inappropriate behavior like boob, and butt grabbing is sexual discrimination, but if you pull her pants down and penetrate her too it is not sexual discrimination? I am not sure I follow that logic.</p>
<p>Yes, that is why I posted the link about Colorado Springs - a hotbed of conservatives. I can’t imagine any parent ending their DD off to college with a gun. The incidence of rape is far lower than drunk sex. The first DD that shoots some poor slob while tipsey will spend alot more time in jail than i think any parent wants to think about. The thought of dunk gun toting college men and women give me major shivers. </p>
<p>"How the conservative talking points sound to me:</p>
<p>M2L: what makes you think that they are conservative positions?</p>
<p>Last I checked, Harvard Law’s faculty is anything but ‘conservative’. Heck, calling Alan Desrshowitz, a signatory to the objections, a convervative would be fightin’ words in Cambfridge. 
</p>
<ol>
<li>It has generally been progressives, such as the current administration supporting the push to find ways to attenuate the campus rape problem. Conservatives such as George Will have consistently denied that the problem is even real. I agree that it should not be a conservative v liberal issue but it has become one. Possibly because President Obama is involved and conservatives therefore believe they must oppose it.</li>
</ol>
<p>I am not saying that I disagree entirely with all the points that conservatives are making or agree with all the points that liberals add making. My issue is that just opposing everything is not sufficient. </p>
<p>What the best way is to bring about a change is not clear to me, but it is clear that change is needed and continuing to allow colleges to shove these incidents under the rug for their own PR purposes is also not acceptable. Things need to change.</p>