All UVa frats on suspension

<p>This is why I think we should be reconsidering the criminality of sexual assault. Rape is a horrible, horrible thing to happen to anyone, and I personally believe it should be fully prosecuted. But we need to decide what is ultimately more important to us: the mental/emotional wellbeing of the victim, or justice for the society. (I’m going to be using sexual assault and rape pretty much interchangeably here. Also I’m assuming an ideal world, where law enforcement does its job and policy changes matter.)</p>

<p>As it’s currently defined, rape is a felony, a crime against the state. While the victim may or may not file a civil suit against the perpetrator, the criminal justice system can still press charges and administer punishments, and the victim has a moral (if not legal) obligation to aid the prosecution (through testimony, for instance). In that light it is logical to demand that we temporarily put aside the immediate needs of the victim: society as a whole should not be denied justice because of one individual. In that light it is logical to demand proof beyond a reasonable doubt, because of the heavy penalties for the guilty: we must take pains to ensure that we are not condemning the innocent. So we would rightfully assert that adjudication belongs in the hands of the legal system and not of a college’s administration. This is pretty much standard for most felonies: most, if not all of us here would be appalled if a college decided to handle a murder or armed robbery case in-house without reporting it to the police and aiding the subsequent investigation. But we’re comfortable with colleges doing just that in the case of sexual assault. Why?</p>

<p>Because sexual assault is an intensely personal thing; the only crime more personal than that is murder/manslaughter, and in some ways rape is even worse for the victim. A murder investigation can proceed without care for retraumatizing the victim; not to belittle the plight of the murdered, but, well, they’re <em>dead</em>, and without proof of an after-life we can safely assume that they are not suffering any ill effects from being put through a reconstruction of events. But rape victims can and do suffer those effects from what is essentially standard due process, and as a society we are beginning to empathize more and more with that (or we’re just beginning to show our empathy. Same effect) - so much so that a significantly large fraction of the population believes that it should be up to the victim whether or not to submit to said investigation in seeking justice. This is the essence of alternatives such as college tribunals: that criminal investigations hurt victims more than they help, if they help at all. According to this argument, what victims need and what we as society should place as utmost priority is space to heal, to move past the trauma, to be able to forget as much as possible. This is in odds with criminal justice, as outlined in the previous paragraph, where the potential pain in reliving an extremely negative experience is secondary to the potential gain in bringing the perpetrator to book.</p>

<p>Beyond this is the lack of clear motive in rape cases (well, apart from the obvious sexual gratification). As a society we (consciously or subconsciously) view rapists, like murderers, as monsters; bogeymen who belong behind bars preferably forever. But in the majority of cases the perpetrator is not a cold-blooded predator out to objectify and torture the victim: this is especially true on campus. Here the rapist may be so socially inept as to misread cues that would be obvious to more mature minds. Here the rapist may be a partner who is genuinely confused as to why that night was different from all others. Here the rapist may be equally intoxicated or otherwise impaired in judgment, equally blank concerning the details after the fact. Here consent or lack thereof is a thousand shades of grey. This does not excuse assault; however, it does make it clear why even the victim would be reluctant to, for lack of a better term, “make a big deal” out of things. In this circumstance we may reasonably feel that a restraining order, or suspension, or counseling, or even an apology is quite enough punishment for what could garner years of imprisonment in a law court. The underlying implication, unlike with criminal prosecution, is that the perpetrator is a better person than this, that all (s)he needs is, in essence, to own up and grow up: that the whole sordid affair is between two (or more) individuals, not the perpetrator and the blind justice of the state. This, right here, is the point of civil law.</p>

<p>So what’s the way forward? I don’t know what is, but I know what it’s not: slapping patches on a flawed system and hastily shoving in props will not bring long-term resolution. Our understanding and appreciation of sexuality as a whole has changed radically in the past five or six decades - perhaps it’s time we toss out our understanding of sexual crime. I can’t speak for the system as a whole, but as for colleges, I wouldn’t do away with tribunals entirely. Beyond justice, a victim also deserves our care and support: two things which an efficient criminal court cannot afford for fear of bias. But as long as rape remains a felony, then we need to treat it as one despite our emotional reactions. I would suggest a special officer(s), or maybe therapists with legal experience/training, to help the college decide where an incident can be resolved by the administration with fair closure for both parties without police intervention and where both the victim and society deserve a higher standard of justice. In the former case school-imposed sanctions are fine, and with the involvement of professionals perhaps fewer innocent people would be caught in the net of “preponderance of evidence”. In the latter case, call the police. Provide the support the victim needs, but let the law handle the investigation.</p>

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<p>These are already required by the Title IX guidelines. The guidelines do not required that the accused be allowed a lawyer, but either both parties are allowed lawyers or neither is.</p>

<p>BP, FERPA may already cover some of that. “A postsecondary institution …may disclose to anyone—not just the victim—the final results of a disciplinary proceeding, if it determines that the student is an alleged perpetrator of a crime of violence or non-forcible sex offense, and with respect to the allegation made against him or her, the student has committed a violation of the institution’s rules or policies.” So it seems (and I’m not going to track this one,) the new bill is about getting the note on the transcript. Of course, proposing a bill doesn’t say it gets anywhere. But as it stands, it seems the new college can inquire. That seems to put the burden on the new college not just to look at the classes taken and the grades. Some do ask.</p>

<p>If I thought my D had been subjected to forcible sexual assault, I’d want her it take it to the police- at a minimum, to get her complaint on record. </p>

<p>I would also want her to turn to U officials and have some response beyond, “oh, dear.” I would want the college to handle it per their Code of Conduct…which takes us right back to that.</p>

<p>I think what some object to is giving the Code of Conduct any teeth.<br>
And the colleges do operate as independent entities. That’s the rub.</p>

<p>@lookingforward Beyond that, I suppose it is a lot fairer for the alleged perpetrator as well. Simply saying that a student was expelled for a sex offense doesn’t really tell an admissions officer anything, and being human (s)he would most probably assume the worst. If the new college is privy to the results of the disciplinary proceeding (I am assuming here that this is more substantial than “X was suspended/expelled for Y offense”?), then it can assess the student’s potential guilt for itself and more objectively decide if (s)he is worth admitting. In theory it would open a few more doors for the innocent (rather than the knee-jerk toss-file-in-the-bin response…)</p>

<p>CF, I understand re: the lawyers, fine. But some of the cases we have discussed where the accused have been dismissed and have sued allege that the man was not allowed to read the accuser’s statement to make a defense/rebuttal (even though the accuser could review the man’s) and that questions were not allowed to be asked of the accuser by the accused.</p>

<p>Also, in at least one of the cases, the accused read the final Title IX investigator report (I believe John Doe v Columbia) and found it riddled with inaccuracies (not the story he told her). He was not allowed to correct it or submit any further information.</p>

<p>I think I would agree with Bluebayou that someone outside of the school has to deal with this. I think the schools want to cover their butts --whether that be by sweeping cases under the rug so they are not known as the “rape school” (per RS), OR by expelling people who are perhaps innocent because they are under pressure to show they are tough on rape. They get it wrong on both extreme counts.</p>

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<p>Perhaps, but that just means that those with wealth can afford a lawyer. Everyone else is subject to the whims of the College Admin, some of which have an agenda. But in any event, the College is clearly not independent in thought or in deed.</p>

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<p>With millions $ possibly on the line, it is humanely impossible for colleges to be “independent” much less objective.</p>

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<p>Interesting. Is stranger rape going to be a civil matter too? You go to the police saying that a stranger came into your house in the middle of the night and raped you and the police say that’s a matter between you and your attacker, women consent to sex in the middle of the night all the time, good luck in finding him, then you can sue him?</p>

<p>Or perhaps it’s criminal rape if the victim didn’t know the accuser, but not criminal rape if she did know him? That’s handy for campus rapists, isn’t it? They can easily trump up some acquaintance-- hey, she was in my chemistry lecture class of 500 students. </p>

<p>Apparently it should be open season on poor women. How is a poor student going to be able to sue her attacker? At the local community college, some students have scholarships even for their books. A student who can’t afford a calculus teacher definitely can’t afford a lawyer. And rape is not so easy to prove that the plaintiff’s bar would be jumping on these cases.</p>

<p>Mere words are inadequate to convey how bad I think this idea is.</p>

<p>BP: Title IX: “Throughout a school’s Title IX investigation, including at any hearing, the parties must have an equal opportunity to present relevant witnesses and other evidence. The complainant and the
alleged perpetrator must be afforded similar and timely access to any information that will be
used at the hearing.”</p>

<p>BB, they operate as independent entities, regardless of whether you think any one process or stand is “independent” of interests or influences. We’d need to dig into more of what this means, functionally; I don’t wish to, maybe you do.</p>

<p>One of the Harvard lawyers’ complaints about the Harvard process was that the Title IX compliance office is also the office that investigates sexual misconduct allegations. Why is this bad, and what structure would be better, assuming that Harvard still wants to investigate sexual misconduct among students?</p>

<p>Okay, so everything I wish for is included in Title IX. The issue then is that the colleges are not applying it correctly? Because a lot of these lawsuits seem to indicate that–including the case filed and won by the UCONN women. It’s not just the accused getting hurt by incorrect or incomplete application of Title IX.</p>

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<p>According to an article in the Boston Globe, the compliance office is not impartial, i.e., independent as I suggested upthread.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/10/14/harvard-law-professors-want-university-new-sexual-harassment-policy-changed/HZ72eaMcLgRgoq4DL9ZBOO/story.html”>http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/10/14/harvard-law-professors-want-university-new-sexual-harassment-policy-changed/HZ72eaMcLgRgoq4DL9ZBOO/story.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Why is the Harvard Title IX office not “structurally impartial,” why is it stacked against the accused, and how would a different office be structurally impartial?</p>

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<p>No, that’s not what I said. What I said is that if we consider rape to be a crime against society, then the victim has an obligation to report and aid an investigation, regardless of trauma. If as a society we consider the victim’s…well-being, for lack of a better word, as more important than potential criminal justice (there is nothing wrong with this stance, by the way), then if a victim decides not to report a rape we should absolve them of any moral/ethical guilt. If a victim goes to the police of her own accord, then of course she is implicitly accepting the case’s criminality and agreeing to the procedures necessary to dispense criminal justice.</p>

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<p>Why must it be one of two rigid options? The entire point of my post was that sexual assault exists on a spectrum, perhaps the greatest spectrum of any crime, and there cannot be a one-size-fits-all legal approach to it. The entire point was that perhaps we should stop treating all sexual assault as a crime against society. Would this require a legal class of its own? Why not? The entire point was that perhaps we should clearly, legally express that even in the presence of evidence, even with a police investigation, it is up to the victim (and in this case the school, with the help of a professional) to prosecute or not to prosecute - whatever is best for his/her wellbeing (by the way, I find it very strange how you leave male victims out of this completely). It’s the philosophy of the thing: whether or not a victim has any ethical obligation to report a rape.</p>

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<p>You’re welcome :)</p>

<p>No law is perfect, imo. This chat reflects the relevant parts of T9, the full DCLs and Ferpa. Plus different colleges’ own Codes of Conduct (which are supposed to reflect what any laws expect them to.)</p>

<p>BP: if the college doesn’t give the accuser and accused the rights and protections expected by the law, I fault the college. They have (or may have) bungled. Sometimes the law misses something or is vague. That’s where the pro’s try to interpret intent or look for other parts that clarify. </p>

<p>I also don’t think filing a lawsuit, after the conclusions, necessarily indicates any innocence. </p>

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<p>I don’t see this ethical obligation being expressed in the case of other crimes. If someone has a burglary, and they don’t report it to the police because they don’t think the report will do any good, no one says they are failing an ethical obligation. I don’t see that a rape victim has any more of an obligation to report than a victim of another crime. I</p>

<p>f someone tells me they were the victim of a crime, but didn’t report it because they thought reporting would be more trouble than it’s worth, I would accept that at face value and not tell them they had an ethical obligation to make a futile report to the police. If I don’t think a theft victim has an obligation to make a futile report, I also must not think that a rape victim has an obligation to make a futile report. My son’s laptop was stolen at community college a few years ago. We didn’t report it. What good would it have done?</p>

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<p>Because assuming all the facts are known, either a particular rape is a crime under the law, or it is not a crime under the law. Those are two rigid options.</p>

<p>I agree with @jewelessien that some kind of restructuring or redefinition of the criminality of sexual assault may be required to break this deadlock. This doesn’t mean that I favor decriminalizing rape, so please restrain yourself from attacking me using that as a premise.</p>

<p>I would suggest that the principles of the Restorative Justice movement might be applied to good effect in many, although obviously not all, cases.</p>

<h1>2890 consolation wrote:</h1>

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<h1>2891 momofthreeboys responded:

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<p>Here is the problem for me. If you are unconscious, you have no idea what is happening to you. Therefore, no one should have access to your body while you are unconscious, or so drunk you aren’t going to remember what happened the next morning. imho</p>

<p>If you want to get so drunk you black out with a trusted partner and agree beforehand to let that partner have sex with you in that state, I want to be able to support your right to do so. I don’t think I can because it makes you too vulnerable. Is it any of my business? I don’t know.</p>

<p>Some victims of domestic violence don’t want to prosecute their abusers. These days they may not have that choice. We think it is in the best interest of victims and society to prosecute some abusers. This is a relatively recent idea. Husbands used to have a god given right to beat their wives. In my childhood men were depicted spanking women in westerns and romantic comedies. I think most of us would be horrified by these sorts of scenes today in supposedly mainstream, family friendly films. (I’m recognizing very different sorts of spanking films exist but not talking about those) Many of us don’t believe in spanking children, much less grown women.</p>

<p>Our standards change. I can see it becoming inconceivable to have sex with someone who won’t remember the encounter.</p>

<p>What restructuring would you have in mind, Consolation? How would you envision Restorative Justice applying to cases of rape?</p>

<p>We’ve talked here before about how some accusers don’t want the alleged offenders to suffer serious sanctions such as suspension or expulsion. But, remember, college offices that handle sexual misconduct deal both with serious accusations such as rape, and more minor accusations such as harassment. Do we have any reason to believe that people who make accusations of rape, sodomy or sexual assault with an object didn’t want their attackers to suffer serious consequences? I had assumed that the accusers who didn’t want their attackers to suffer serious consequences were making accusations of more minor offenses.</p>

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<p>Of course they do–and should! What do you think a building does when a tenant claims a doorman, porter or handyman touched a young child sexually or a young female tenant claims a doorman “took advantage” of her when she arrived home drunk and he helped her into her apartment or that he sexually assaulted her when he came to do repairs in her apartment? Do you think the building simply assumes the tenant is telling the truth and fires the employee? Do you think the building refers the matter for criminal prosecution and the DA prosecutes even if the victim or victim’s parents don’t want to pursue a criminal case? (And believe me, the parents of a young child who has been sexually molested and traumatized by the experience often decide against pursuing charges because the experience of being interviewed by investigators, having a rape kit done, and having to testify before a jury is an awful lot to put a little kid through.) </p>

<p>(If you’ve never lived in an apartment building, you may not understand how interwoven into your life staff members become. Little kids, especially, often trust the people like the elevator operator whom they see several times every day, or the doorman who greets them and lets them into the bike storage room and helps them to get out their bike, and may always have a treat for their pet dog. )</p>

<p>Or what does a company do when a female employee claims she was raped by a co-worker in an isolated spot in a factory, department store, etc. ? Does it just fire the employee? Or does it tell the rape victim she has to keep working with the employee unless she goes to the police and reports it and her co-worker is actually arrested?</p>

<p>Often, these matters are covered by a collective bargaining agreement and there is an investigation and a hearing. There is a process and there’s an attempt to make it fair, but there certainly aren’t depositions or a jury, etc. </p>

<p>A couple of years ago, there was a horrible case in which a taxi driver called the police to help a young woman who had ridden home in his cab and was too inebriated to get out of the cab. Two police officers responded to the call and took her home. IIRC, a video from the building showed the cops carrying her into her apartment. It also showed them returning 3 times that night using her keys. Each time, the cops stayed in the apartment more than half an hour. The young woman alleged they had raped her but she was so intoxicated that her testimony was somewhat vague. One of the cops claimed he was a former alcoholic and he was “counseling” her about her drinking. The other cop claimed they were just checking to make sure she was okay. The jury failed to convict. The police department’s internal investigation found them guilty of rape. The cops were fired. The department waited until the jury verdict to announce they were fired because they didn’t want the publicity to affect the case. So, technically, the cops were on unpaid leave while the case was pending. But the fact that a jury found them not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt didn’t mean the police department had to continue to employ them when the evidence was certainly sufficient to show they probably raped her.</p>

<p>Note that these cases do NOT involve a civil case brought by the victim. They involve a process whereby an employer attempts to weed out employees who may victimize its “customers,” in the broadest sense. We .may try to hold them liable if they don’t. Rather than bringing a civil suit against the handyman she alleges raped her when he came into her apartment to make repairs, the female tenant may sue the building owners and managment for failing to institute procedures which could have prevented the attack. </p>

<p>I honestly just don’t “get” why so many people think colleges should be unable to kick out someone accused of rape unless he–it is usually a he-- is at least arrested by the police. We don’t say to an apartment building owner that it has to continue to employ someone who PROBABLY raped a tenant, particularly a young child, unless he is arrested. And, if there is a tenant who has been accused of raping another tenant when they were both in an elevator late at night and there was evidence that he PROBABLY did, we wouldn’t be angry if the building sought to evict him. And, if four different female tenants told just about the same story about him raping them in the elevator or the laundry room, etc., we wouldn’t think it was irrational for the building to try to evict him and to DO something to make the other tenants safer–e.g., installing cameras in the elevator or laundry room, maybe having a elevator operator during non-rush hours, etc. </p>

<p>I think colleges should have AT LEAST the same obligations. If a student has PROBABLY sexually assaulted someone, I think it is entirely fair to kick him out. I don’t want the way in which it is determined that he probably did it to be a kangaroo court. I want fair procedures. But I don’t want the policy to be that he can stay enrolled and live in a dorm unless he is arrested. If several young women claim they were raped in a particular frat, yes, I would tell the frat it has to pay for campus police to be present during its parties and do things like install security cameras in public areas which will be monitored by campus police. </p>