<p>I wouldn’t call that rape, but I wouldn’t call it worth it, either.</p>
<p>And I think women should demand better sex than that or just forcefully say no. Even in college, even that young, if I’d been in the middle, and by the middle, I mean actual intercourse, and THAT unengaged? I would have pushed the guy off of me. Yuck.</p>
<p>We need to teach our daughters to demand better sex, and I wish somebody would teach boys what actually IS good sex for a young woman.</p>
<p>But, I wouldn’t call it rape.</p>
<p>On the other hand, </p>
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<p>Her responsibility to herself is subverted by her belief she somehow has to keep a guy happy, be polite. This is a girl who needed a parent to tell her, when she was in her teens, that it is okay to want sex, and it is okay to not want bad sex. But, to do that, a parent has to be willing to tell a girl what this is, or give her a good book. But, she had no responsibility to him. Jeez. It’s not like he left unsatisfied. </p>
<p>But unsatisfying sex isn’t rape, it’s just something women should not accept.</p>
<p>Do young women really think it’s OK to sleepover. Even brothers and sisters don’t generally sleep in the same bed. </p>
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<p>Absolutely Poet. And I would add that it’s OK to learn how to say “no.” They’ll need to say “no” many times in life and not just in the context of a male partner. So many people just have such a hard time saying no to another human being whether it’s sitting on a committee, telling your kids no, telling friends no that you are too tired or need to study. No is a very practical word. </p>
<p>Yes. That story completely illustrates why I hate hook up culture. I guess she thought it was worth it to trade bad sex for a sleepover. I guess if that was worth it to her, then that’s fine, but it’s not rape. I don’t want to mix up rape and hook up culture on this thread. They are very different things.</p>
<p>I am glad my girls weren’t into hook up culture, though. They had plenty of sleepovers with young men who were on the way to becoming their significant boyfriends, after they’d been dating for a while. But, by then, the guys wanted the sleepovers too. Just one data point.</p>
<p>Perhaps the DE/OCR could fund advocacy groups that could help rape and sexual assault victims make a better case in court. Perhaps colleges could team up with their local precincts to make sure that their facilities and personnel are up to speed to handle sexual assault cases.</p>
<p>The police want convictions too. The colleges and advocacy groups should focus on what is needed to get campus rapists and assaulters tried and convicted within the existing legal system. Of course, the process starts with the victim. </p>
<p>Other than being believed, what would make victims more comfortable with the police and courts? I think the perception and the process have come a long way in the past few years, so how do colleges move forward?</p>
<p>There are thousands of colleges in the US and thus thousands of corresponding police forces. I’d like to see a task force start with a few – maybe in places with colleges with robust party/drinking cultures – and devise partnerships that benefit everyone, the colleges, the victims, the accused, society as a whole.</p>
<p>The conversation has come a long way. The process, not so much. The process needs to catch up. Nothing has changed at all yet. And acting as if a better conversation is an actual change is a mistake. Police need to investigate rape reports, particularly in the cases with rape kits. Rape kits need to be readily available everywhere. Advocates to go with the women to report to police need to be made available.</p>
<p>A big part of the problem is the trauma rape causes to the victim. The questioning needs to be changed and the attitudes of police towards victims traumatized reporting needs to change, as well. time and space need to be given for the brain to absorb the trauma, the way the brain works during shock and trauma need to be taken into account, both by the police and the administration.</p>
<p>Because it’s easy to talk about this in the abstract, and to act as if the rape victim is some character in a story who should act the way we think she should act, but she is a real person in incredible pain and emotional distress, usually away from home for the first year and without any kind of real support around her to speak of.</p>
<p>Okay, this is weird. The email Randall (Ryan Duffin, the friend Jackie allegedly had an unrequited crush on) received from Haven/Drew was published and is pretty much plagiarized from a Dawson’s Creek episode:</p>
<p>I think CNN also had the Dawson’s Creek plagiarized crush texts. One of the three friends must have released them to someone which would probably include the cops, so yeah. But, that wasn’t my post. I’m trying to withdraw. It’s hard. </p>
<p>Now, on a more serious note Post 3199 is very helpful. Grey area was not enough of an explanation for everyone to understand the entirety of these circumstances. I don’t want to mix them up either but I think they have been mixed up and I know with certainty that there are young women out there who will jump up and down trying to convince us that that girl was raped. So, for now I have no answers and I don’t think the tribunals are going to solve this mess that has been made and the girl in the example was sure she didn’t consent and she will have people on that campus telling her she needs to report her rape to the advocacy office, unfortunately. And, no the cops can’t really do much for her, either. And, in CA she was raped because there was no Yes. And, no of course this isn’t all of them but it is more of them than many people think, I’m afraid. </p>
<p>Re The Daily Caller: Sorry about the source, did not know what it was. It is not a site I frequent or know much about. But we know from previous multiple interviews with Ryan (unless he is lying?) that such an email exists extolling his virtues. IF indeed this is the real email sent to Ryan—by Haven, Drew, Jackie, whoever-- it is lifted from Dawson’s Creek. Other parts were also found to be similar to other sources, but perhaps not by trusted reporters.</p>
<p>Again, sorry if the source is bad. I will reserve judgement until it is confirmed or denied by more mainstream and respected news outlets. If there is such a thing anymore?</p>
<p>Every indication is that Jackie told UVa a much less serious version of her story than she told RS. She also waited a few months to tell an official at UVa. She waited until she was called into the Dean’s office because she was failing classes. There is no indication that she told her RA, which would have been the normal way for the system to become aware of a problem. There are federal confidentiality rules that colleges must follow, which limit what the U. could say at the time and what they can say today… </p>
<p>If Jackie was raped, then anything other than lying to Rolling Stone is immaterial.</p>
<p>As we have repeatedly stated on here, we simply cannot blame young rape victims for not being able to follow some protocol WE have set up in our heads for them. They are rape victims. The truth is that where there is a rape victim, the blame is with the rapist, not the girl.</p>
<p>That said, at this point discussing Jackie is silly. Who knows what really happened with her AND she asked RS not to publish her story. The blame for the Jackie story lies with Erdley and RS.</p>
<p>How has this at all become a discussion about “good sex” and “bad sex” in terms of one or both parties enjoying it? It’s rather disgusting to think that someone assumes that if the sex “wasn’t enjoyable” a woman might say “therefore, I didn’t want it” like if you bought a necklace that clashed with your favorite outfit.</p>
<p>I was very very lucky to find one guy in college who was concerned about what I wanted and I was concerned about what he wanted. That’s 25 years now, same thing. It just is NOT on someone’s radar in college “hey, what does she really want” especially when the end of the sentence is “from a guy she just met and was drinking with?”.</p>
<p>RS had better lawyer up. If there is any proof that Jackie did not want the story published, and that the reporter and/or RS knowingly published it, let alone the misidentification of the frat, that’s RS filing for bankruptcy.</p>
<p>All of this returns to money and prestige. </p>
<p>Well, personally, I think what does she really want from a guy she just met and has been drinking with is a question a guy ought to ask himself and her, particularly if what he wants is to have sex with her. That said, a one night stand of bad sex is not rape, and women know this. Rape is entirely different.</p>
<p>Consenting to sex and then regretting the choice is not the same as not consenting to sex.</p>
<p>Furthermore, look at this case, or any other. Nobody is getting convicted for this, not even what it really is acquintace rape. They system is working for the accused, at this point. </p>
<p>That said, the truth is that women are really not accusing men of rape on a regular basis, and even when they have been raped, they are very reluctant to come forward. </p>
<p>We pretty much accept this as a truth. When we quit accepting that idea and have an expectation each party does care about what the other really wants, the status quo shifts. Campus culture changes. That shift should cut down on these he said/ she said scenarios because there will have been some basic communication beforehand. It will probably cut down on the number of drunken hook-ups. Having come of age in the 70s, I am having a difficult time letting go of the idea the drunken hook-up is okay, but am just about there. I had always been interpreting it as a rebellion against inappropriate moral restrictions placed on sex, making the act sinful. Now I’m wondering, if the participants don’t care about each other at all, is this just a different sort of immorality? It took trying to look at this through the eyes of my kids and their friends to get to this point.</p>