All UVa frats on suspension

Do people not see the absolute hole the size of Mack truck in expecting this to realistically work?

Re Hannah and other examples, many females (and their friends) are so intoxicated they cannot even think of doing any of the above and do not even think about taking those decisions. Hannah’s friends were intoxicated too and abandoned her and let her go.

Ignore the elephant in the room seems to be the modus operandi on this issue, but I posit that as long as adult females teach young females that being drunk is not an issue negatively affecting their safety, then the amount of alleged assaults will never do down. There are more than enough predators who do not care about laws and morals and what advocates say who will rape regardless, and there will be the same number of initial consensual activity between intoxicated females and intoxicated males that will then be later called rape.

The problem will not be solved if the same ingredients are still being poured into the pot. Sure you can clean the pot (adjudicate) after the fact, but the exact same stew will be made if the same ingredients are just added back.

Yes, but this assumes the female is thinking straight. I agree It is not the break in that is the issue, it is the subtle walk inside with the female that the female does not really even realize.

Think of it this way, if the drinking female was thinking and functioning straight then she would not need a walk home from a strange guy.

Perhaps there need to be some designated sober WOMEN at those fraternity parties.

I doubt there is any adult female who has ever taught a young female that being drunk is not an issue negatively affecting her safety in the history of the world.

I recognize the fact that a drunk female is not thinking straight and that’s why I advocate that another female take on the responsiblity of protecting her.

The guy doesn’t have to force his way in. He just has to “help” a young woman who is drunk to find her keys and/or assist her in unlocking her door…or just follow her in or even, say he is walking her home and then take her somewhere else.

Inquiring minds wonder, even though it’s the daily news it was a legitimate study

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/college-women-outdrinking-men-study-article-1.1355599

Outdrinking? Hmm. Seems to me that 14 is still bigger than 7.

Ugh. The “elephant in the room” isn’t drunk girls. The elephant in the room is boys using drunk girls for sex without the girls’ consent.

awcntdb, you accused the rest of us of living in lala land repeatedly, but what kind of lala land do you live in where you imagine college-age women aren’t going to get themselves intoxicated with some regularity, whether their moms tell them it’s OK or not? In my world, a large number of kids that age like to get drunk, or high, or both, or several other variants, and it’s pretty hard to keep them from doing it. Eventually, they figure out what’s fun and what’s not, and they regulate themselves. Boys and girls, both. In the meantime, they are engaging in risky behavior, absolutely. I with they weren’t, but that wish ain’t coming true.

So what rules should we have about sex in those years? If, as you say repeatedly, a big part of the problem is that drunk boys can’t tell if a drunk girl isn’t consenting, why isn’t the solution to tell boys that if they are drunk and have sex it’s strict liability: their partner says she didn’t consent, they go to jail (or get expelled, or something like that)? Why must girls be responsible for self-restraint, but not boys? Why can’t girls be wild, and let boys maintain decorum?

Of course, the reality is that girls and boys, straight and gay, all use Dutch courage to overcome their inhibitions and to get down. Getting drunk and having sex is pretty close to a universal experience for college-age kids. (Apologies here to the many of you whose exceptional children don’t do either, or don’t do them at the same time. And of course to you Dutch, too.) It happens thousands of times a night – well, maybe a Thursday-Friday-Saturday night – on most college campuses, and only a teensy-tiny percentage of those encounters ever involves a rape accusation, or even for that matter a feeling of maybe having been raped. Which doesn’t mean that it’s all joyful, healthy sex. I bet there’s lots of regret, and feeling that I made a mistake, and what would my mother think, and maybe I shouldn’t get that ****-faced next time, etc. There’s a fog of guilt hanging over every campus. But it’s still unusual for anyone to accuse anyone else of rape, given the high number of opportunities.

You believe that there is a high volume of rape accusations that are really sex-regret. I would love to see evidence of that. On the men’s rights website that collected all the suits against universities, there was a handful of cases that looked like that was what was going on, but at most it was a handful. I believe the vast majority of rape accusations is coming from women (and a few men) who know they have been raped, not from people who don’t want to admit that they got drunk to get laid.

The possibility that some accusations are false is why a significant degree of due process in necessary in college proceedings. But no one should assume that false accusations are most of what there are, and that there isn’t really a problem to be solved.

Actually I personally do think the elephant in the room is alcohol. Per capita there aren’t as many rape accusations per year on campuses as previously surmised. The next interesting thing would be to break down how many of those involved alcohol on the part of the accuser and/or the accused. I’m guessing it’s a pretty high number and I’m guessing in many cases both were drinking.

I’d take issue with this claim. We should be careful with claims about binge drinking. One in five college students does not drink at all. Even on heavy-drinking campuses, only about half the students binge drink, which is defined as drinking enough to reach the BAC level for drunk driving. Of course, those students who binge drink typically drink a lot more than is necessary for a DUI, but the point is, the majority of college students are not drinking that much. If they aren’t getting drunk, a fortiori they aren’t getting drunk and having sex.

We do a disservice to students if we convey the impression that it’s the universal experience to get drunk at college. It’s not.

Agreed, but unfortunately most of what is being discussed with frats and also with sexual assaults probably have very much to do with drinking and i would speculate the the amount of reported sexual conduct that is NOT connected to drinking is very small. If there is a “rape” problem at college it is probably highly correlated with drinking and students who do not drink probably have a far, far lower incidence of being involved either as the accuser or the accused in a sexual misconduct investigation.

Do you think outside the literal, at all?

How are these females getting drunk??? Alcohol that is voluntarily ingested for whatever reasons. And yes, in the overwhelming majority of these alleged assault cases there is a female who voluntarily ingested alcohol and got intoxicated.

These females are not getting drunk breathing air. The fact that I even have to mention alcohol is crazy.

Again, there is no epidemic of sober rape on campus and no epidemic of intoxicated males assaulting sober females. No one seems to want to examine why this is?

Answer: The centerpiece of the majority of these cases is an intoxicated female who got in position where she lost control of the situation. Hum. And how did the female get to the point of losing control of the situation? By voluntarily ingesting alcohol to the point of bad decision-taking. Stop short of that point of bad decision-taking and the assault issue will approach the non-epidemic sober rape stats.

Didn’t you mean:

The centerpiece of the majority of these cases is an intoxicated male who got in position where he lost control of the situation. Hum. And how did the male get to the point of losing control of the situation? By voluntarily ingesting alcohol to the point of bad decision-taking. Stop short of that point of bad decision-taking and the assault issue will approach the non-epidemic sober rape stats.

Agreed.

However, it is also a major disservice to put out a false narrative that, in general, females are at a higher risk of rape in college. That is patently false. The majority of females are actually safer re assault on their college than off it.

In contrast, what is true is that females who drink routinely and get intoxicated are at a higher risk of getting involved in situations of a sexual nature of which they normally would not.

We know this is the case because there is no long list of sober, clear-headed females being raped on any campus that I am aware of.

Therefore, the average, smart, keep her head on straight female is not at a higher risk of assault in college. And to peddle that narrative to cover for drinking and intoxicated females getting in over their heads is a disservice to females who do not partake in such behavior to the extent of losing decision-taking awareness.

FWIW, the guy who tried to rape me clearly was not drunk, that is, as well as I could tell with me drunk. Having been drunk since, I have never lost memories when I was drunk (YMMV).

Why is it the assumed scenario is one guy and one girl, both drinking heavily and together, obviously some kind of romantic/flirty behavior, and then oops they end up in a room together?

“getting in over their heads” = fair game for rape?

Do you get, that since the 1983 gang rape referenced in the link I provided in the Schlafly thread, that people DO understand that an intoxicated person cannot consent to sex? Do you get it at all?

Reprinted from that thread:

This really happened (note: others said Jackie RS story was 100% made up):
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1983/3/23/student-accuses-u-of-penn-frat/

http://articles.philly.com/1991-09-16/news/25802565_1_fraternity-staar-ato

And in this article:
http://www.thedp.com/survivingsilence/Penn-decades-long-history-of-confronting-sexual-assault.html

Notice this from the last article in particular:

"The incident prompted an impassioned discussion on sexual assault and cultural norms. Some students denied that what had occurred was rape — claiming instead that the alleged victim merely exercised poor judgment due to intoxication.

“The young lady went out and got herself in trouble,” an ATO member told the DP when the story broke. “She was not in the most sober and upright state, she was loose and wild, imbibing many things and she was flaunting herself.”"

As for “alleged,” not one person either in ATO when I went to Penn, nor when my friend went there at the time of the “allegations,” doubts that the gang rape occurred. That quote from an ATO member sums it up, and it sums up how some people still feel.

You know what else we don’t have an epidemic of? Women raping people. How about if we examine that? How about if we look at the perpetrators? How about if we examine the fact that one in six college men think that forcing a woman to have sex when she doesn’t want isn’t rape? How about if we start using the clue stick to beat up the rapists, instead of talking about the victims?

The centerpiece of the cases is a man who is raping someone. Let’s not dance around that. Nobody else is responsible for a rape except the rapist.

We end up going round and round. Some of you clearly think that men initiate sex with women. And that women need to be protected from big bad men who “lose control of the situation.” I’m not going there. I’m not willing to abdicate that men are in control and I am not. Rape is rape. Some of this stuff is not rape. I do agree that we need to ensure due process as a way of examining who did what to whom. As Pizza says…carry on.

No, but thanks for trying. We think that women need to be protected from men who don’t lose control of the situation, but who retain control, overpower women or take advantage of women who are unconscious, and rape them. We don’t care about the lame excuses of the men-- that they had no idea that the woman was unconscious that her crying and protestations meant she didn’t consent. We don’t care that men don’t know that forcing a woman to have sex when she doesn’t want it is rape.

Momofthreeboys, how do you respond to the now well-documented facts that a lot of college men think that rape isn’t rape?

All Hannah needed was one good samaritan. I’m not going to stop teaching my boys to do what is right.

Think of all the people that night who could have made a decision that would have saved her life. No, it is not there responsibility, but it is the right thing to do.

We don’t have an epidemic of young women being raped by men on college campuses.

We have an epidemic of young women being raped by men everywhere. Do you read stats on girls being gang raped and killed by the perpetrators? Or being killed by their family once it is clear they had sex outside of marriage, even forced on them?

It’s not just a college issue, but there are issues such as dorm rooms being bedrooms and frat parties being held with many empty bedrooms available which exacerbate the problem. But stats say a woman who doesn’t go to college has at least the same chance of being raped.

The issue is not young women being raped, to decrease that, and to decrease young men being raped as well, is education - yes means yes, and not sober is not able to consent. That would be great of course, more informed people less likely to be criminals.

BUT: the real problem is colleges considering themselves little empires that are not subject to the same rules. If someone is on a rural college campus, and the student health service isn’t open over night, and there is no hospital nearby, what is a victim to do? Can a student call the town police and get treated seriously, or will they be given back to campus safety?

Why aren’t there federal best practices on how to handle sexual assault on campus? Mandated if you get federal aid of any sort?

Like:

  • mandate a clear relationship with a local hospital for rape kits
  • arrange with campus safety free rides to the hospital if necessary
  • 24/7 rape hotline with counselors available
  • mandated college-level education about drugs and alcohol - how alcohol can have delayed effects, how drugs and alcohol can compound effects

Think about it - when we were in HS, and even now in HSs, the “health” class spends a small amount of time on drug and alcohol education, and the person doing the education is pretty much a non-professional - not a counselor, not someone whose JOB it is to help people with drug or alcohol problems or questions. I would hope that would be different at a college.

Cardinal Fang: Yes, it does a disservice to imply that getting drunk is a universal college experience. But if you are going to throw around statistics, it may make sense to look hard at them. If we are looking at residential college campuses populated mainly by 18-22 year-olds, I want to see the statistics that say only half of them ever get drunk. That may be a credible statement about someplace, but it isn’t a credible statement about any place people I know have gone to college.

It may be that at any particular time, some significant portion of the student body is not drinking regularly, or not drinking to drunkenness regularly (and not using other drugs in substantially the same way). But I suspect that a significant portion of that significant portion has drinking (or equivalent drug use) in their recent past or foreseeable future. Also – I thought the definition of “binge drinking” for social survey purposes was significantly different from having a particular blood-alcohol level, since having a particular blood-alcohol level is rather hard to measure. The definitions I have seen were drinks per x-hour period and seemed to go well beyond the modal .08 legal DUI standard. I think you can be impaired without binge drinking.

TV4caster (#3691): Exactly.