Alh - that’s her parents writing this…you know that right? And this was a public letter…in which they accused Nungesser of lying…the counsel probably told her not to tell the panel he was lying because he wasn’t and the panel knew it and the university was afraid of setting a sue-able precedent by getting something like that in the transcript - they might have been protecting her - I could be wrong and the parent would be badly informed but…
@sevmom I can’t find the link after 20 minutes of Googling but I promise you there was a case that was discussed here on the board. Finding it in 4100+ posts, however, is impossible.
I know for a fact that there was one case where the accused was allowed a lawyer and the accuser was told she could only have a UVA law student.
I am less certain but am pretty sure there was another case where the accuser was told that nobody could be in the room with her at all (not even a parent) while the accused was allowed a representative.
Hopefully someone on here will remember a name from one of those cases.
from the same parental letter:
I have read about the video other places. This could all be false. I have no idea. It seems true to me. Her parents seem truthful to me.
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4138 momofthreeboys: Yesterday you pointed out, correctly, that Savannah Dietrich had nothing to do with talking about college rape. It is true I'm all over the place on this thread. However, my question is just about college rapes and you are sort of changing the subject it seems to me. Rape doesn't even have to be the most important campus problem to be a problem worth fixing. imho. I am not trying to play gotcha. I am trying to understand if you even believe rape is a campus problem worth addressing. We can disagree on the correct ways to address the problem. I am trying to understand if you and Marie even believe in the existence of a campus rape problem.
adding: you distracted me momofthreeboys. I was answering sevmom’s question about examples of unequal legal representation. I don’t think it is a lie the accused had an outside lawyer and the accuser did not.
Does anyone remember the exact numbers. Wasn’t it a small percentage and almost within the margin of error of the study?
It was higher but I don’t remember how much higher. But, the point is calling it a campus problem makes no sense because it isn’t a campus problem and it is a problem without a campus solution if we are talking about a felony crime.
Momofthreeboys, that is a lot of speculation on your part. 
I don’t believe the beginning of your first paragraph in post #4138 is true. Do you have a source?
I am talking about this…
Or maybe it is just sexual assaults that aren’t lower on college campuses?
But… Can we see a real study? Or is this more speculation?
I am not sure what you mean by this. You say
. That implies there isn’t a problem on campus. You certainly can’t mean that based on a supposed rape rate that is slightly lower than off campus. That is like saying that there isn’t a murder problem in Washington DC because the rate is lower than in Detroit.
I hope what you meant was that because it isn’t JUST a campus problem that any solutions should be nationwide solutions and not just campus wide. If that is what you mean (which I think it is) then it is still a campus problem. It is also a community problem. It just isn’t exclusively a campus problem and nobody has ever said that it was.
Honestly, maybe it’s time that people really do need to cite a credible source, regardless of position. Rumor, innuendo, are just that, rumor and innuendo. The Jackie story got major play, unfortunately because Jackie’s probably mostly fabricated story was forwarded as real by advocates and Erdeley was looking for a sensational story. Where the heck is Erdeley? Anybody know?She seems pretty quiet these days.
The campus rape epidemic that we read about so often lately does not seem to be born out by the statistics and it is referred to as “campus rape” so If it’s more prevalent off-campus this makes no sense to me, at all. In other words, I don’t know why we have a crime category called campus rape. But, I do think you’re nit-picking here. I could be wrong. Although, if Detroit was located inside Washingtom DC that analogy might be logical since campuses are in cities with already existing judicial systems. Plus, If they want to argue the misconduct cases in tribunals that’s fine by me but personally I would probably pass. And, none of this prevents anything because at that point it has all already happened.
Sevmon is correct about the advocates involved in the UVA story, just to further clarify some prior nitpicking from a few days ago.
@dstark there was a link to the study a few weeks ago that MOTB is referring to. It showed a small percentage more rapes off campus than on campus. The figure was something like 2.7 per XXX population to 3.1 per XXX population. It was statistically a small number and almost within the margin of error of the study (it was also just one study but everyone is treating it like it is gospel and means something significant).
I tried to help by finding the link to the study she cited but haven’t been able to find it so far (but she is correct).
In general that is a good idea and I think people try to do that. I am not sure if you have read every post through these last few months, but lots of what is being referred to here has been linked before (e.g. the campus vs non campus rape statistic that MOTB referenced a while ago). She was right and shouldn’t have to keep linking to it. Like I just said in another post, I couldn’t find the link for her just now but I know she is right.
The same thing goes with my referencing the SMB case at UVA. It isn’t rumor or innuendo, but has been discussed and linked before by someone. People shouldn’t have to keep spending time (30 min so far in my case) looking for something that has already been linked and discussed.
^^I wonder if the moderators would help us create one of those sticky threads where the main links cold be saved.? Is there a way to accomplish that for ourselves. It seems unreasonable to me someone joining in now could read the whole thread. And sometimes we are even referencing past threads. Since the last CC board formatting change, the search function seems almost useless to me.
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Hunt, #4904:
I like this post. It seems to me Hunt is acknowledging campus rape as a serious problem. I don’t think it is a bad thing to debate the best way to meaningfully address the problem. I am interested in reading that discussion.
However, there are posters who seem to me to be discounting campus rape as a serious problem and all their posts are based on that belief, imho.
When I have objected to the focus of the thread shifting to a concern about men, I am objecting to posts which seem to me to discount the seriousness of campus rape. I have no doubt I am frequently misreading what posters are actually writing, but wanted to clarify my own point of view here.
I’ve read most posts but don’t recall an SMB case but must have missed it… It remains rumor and innuendo to me when anecdotes though are thrown out , like a particular unnamed fraternity being a “roofie” house. If there is no substantiation , that is a serious allegation. I would hope that parents( (especially parents of girls) would take that kind of info to the highest levels of police and college administration if they believe that to be true.
To make the point more starkly, when it comes to rape, it is safer for a female on a college campus than walking down the streets of the town, which the college is in.
No one is arguing that rape on campus should not be addressed. What has happened though is a loss of credibility by advocates because in the rush to get some action on the issue false stats, anecdotes, numbers were inflated by redefinitions, and all sorts of things were thrown up as factual. The result is people are a bit wary and looking much more closely at claims being made.
And people get a bit more wary when the main talking point is trying to reduce the number of rapes, but then the major focus is adjudication and conviction rates. It just seems lost on advocates that people know that adjudication and conviction rates are aspects, which can only be affected after an alleged assault has occurred. Therefore, for many, the main focus of action does not follow the main focus of advocate’s rhetorical goal.
sevmom, I don’t know if you have seen this before:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/20/us/date-rape-drug-probe/
http://www.oanow.com/news/article_9e35eeca-90f7-11e3-8f34-0017a43b2370.html
First, I think it has been called a “problem” more than an “epidemic” but it doesn’t really matter. The fact is that even the lowest projections put campus rape in the thousands of cases per year (probably tens of thousands per year). OK. I just found it!!!
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176
Going by those figures there are 73,200 sexual assaults per year on college campuses (12 million women X 6.1/1000). I call that an epidemic.
The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Just because something is (might be) a bigger problem in one location than another (by a small amount) it doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem. If we are talking about rapes on campus then they are “campus rapes”. If we are talking about overall rape statistics then they are “rapes”.
What do you think is the biggest injustice in the world today? Let’s say you think it is child hunger (just picking a random example). Would you say that it isn’t a problem in, say, Burundi versus Eritrea? It isn’t ok to say Burundi has a child hunger problem because they aren’t quite as high as Eritrea despite 34% of kids starving or malnourished?
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf
Figure 2…
The last few years…nonstudents and students 18-24 are assaulted at similar rates. In fact, it can be argued students are being assaulted more.
These are reported assaults.
When I read the word advocates…I rolll my eyes. Lol!
me too.
Even if you accept the DOJ statistics at face value, this is not true and not close to be true. The DOJ reports that the assault rate for women in college in 2013 was 4.3 per thousand. The assault rate for all women not in college was a little above 1.4 per thousand. The assault rate for women of college age who were not in college was the same as the college-age women in college rate, 4.3 per thousand.
Let’s point out that even if we believe the DOJ’s numbers, we ought to be concerned that the assault rate for women in college and women not in college is about the same. Women not in college have a lot of characteristics that typically make people more likely to be crime victims: they are poorer and more likely to be non-white. Independent of their college status, we should expect those women to be more likely to be raped. And yet they are not. We should expect that our daughters in college have some protection due to their SES status, but they don’t. Why?
When the DOJ gets their new, more accurate, rape statistics on line, it will be interesting to see whether college women are more likely to be raped in term-time or during summer vacation.
(Oh, and a quick review about the DOJ rape statistics: the DOJ admits that they way they collect the statistics for rape is inaccurate and likely to undercount rape. The National Crime Victim Survey interviews people in full sight and hearing of their families, and this is likely to result in an undercount of acquaintance rape, for example. The DOJ is completely revamping the way that rape statistics are gathered, using a completely new survey, but the new results won’t be available for several years.)
[url=http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf]Here[/url] is the press release that momofthreeboys refers to, but apparently didn’t read.
I guess this is where we differ. If I know for a fact that a large group of girls calls a frat a “roofie house” I certainly feel it is appropriate to give that example (without naming the house) when someone asks the general question of whether or not date rape drugs are even a problem on college campuses. I especially have no problem when my kid and their friends confirm to me that they witnessed it first-hand.