Let’s assume that al2simon is correct, and colleges have the legal right to turn a blind eye to campus drinking. Does that mean they must turn a blind eye to campus drinking? If they clamped down on underage drinking on campus, would that bring down drinking overall, or just drive it off campus? Probably both.
It doesn’t matter if we think a college should or should not share disciplinary records. It’s part of Ferpa. In general, it happens when the new college asks for info that the student was in good standing. Ime, it’s not T9 folks who would share, but those with access to the various core records.
“feminists wanted to be treated equally. They wanted the right to…” You know “feminist” is a loaded word for many- even on this thread, it conjures up extremists. When I entered the business world I wanted the quality of my work to matter. Mostly, it did. (Not all firms are good firms.) One doesn’t have to be a feminist to want work recognition or for college women to have less threat from predators of any sort.
So, when you mean extremists, why not just say it? You don’t like advocates who make a big fuss n muss, scream and chant, possibly spin stats for attention to issues that move them- and accuse men of this, that, and the other thing, more often than is merited.
That does NOT mean the baby gets thrown out with the bath water. You still have to view the core issue. Women do get raped/sexually assaulted and all the etc-- and there should be some appropriate reactions.
Why not?
I can reduce this for you- and many won’t like it.
Being impaired means you can’t offer legal consent.
Applies to contracts, wills, various agreements, etc.
So, all this talk about the accused college kid saying, “Well, I thought she was ok with it,” goes out the window, if she was impaired.
And, of course, there are drunk pairs who have sex and are fine with it- that’s barely germane. They aren’t bringing complaints.
The matter isn’t who got convicted of what, with what punishments- and who thinks the accused should be expelled vs suspended vs “counseled.” Or who wants to pointedly call this a tribunal, as if a Roman dictator is doing thumbs down or thumbs up. Or who thinks whatever abut how police handle this.
For the campus environment and its students in some off-campus situations the point is as simple as T9 makes it: move to protect the accuser, make certain accommodations as needed, investigate the details and officially review the matter.
If you take from that that it means “convict more” or inflate number or specifically expel more…
…that’s on you.
If you think this is easily blamed on feminists or feminist history- well, it doesn’t matter to me. However we got here, we are now here.
Does more reporting increase numbers? Of course it does. Does it mean these are made-up numbers? Of course not.
Tell sons to be cautious. Err on the side of caution. “We’ve been drinking, let’s wait” is a lot safer than “But I thought she was agreeing.”
And it is FAR more respectful to our boys than treating this as some uncontrollable animal instinct.
Get my drift?
So many things evolve over time. I think at it’s core you can’t pressure colleges and universities without examining the root cause and you can’t expect colleges to automatically jump expulsions off the charts withlut examining all the circumstances surrounding what that means. The impact on a person’s life from an expulsion can be lifelong so it’s not something to be tossed out lightly for all the reasons given several pages back. It wasn’t that long ago that people had really broad rights concerning family members and medical care and records. It wasn’t that long ago that businesses could tell prospective employers all kinds of things in a personnel record so in my opinion it wouldn’t surprise me as this “new thinking” evolves concerning non-use of the criminal system for adjudication of criminal acts and is tried and tested in courts that some of these extemporaneous intertwined issues like underage alcohol consumption, like sharing of information with people outside the college etc. could potentially come into play. Things evolve and they don’t happen in a vacuum.
Not sure if you’re asking this just for any lurkers who haven’t posted? The remaining few of us are more or less discussing just this thing - what’s appropriate, what is legal, what is the responsibility of the university vs. the criminal system and on and on.
As far as feminism - I’m definitely part of the second-wave feminism movement and as I said I don’t totally “get” the third wave feminists. That’s not a positive or a negative statement, just that I’m conflicted about the goals of today’s young women. But that’s a topic for a different thread in a different forum.
I think this is an important point. As we know, a substantial portion of the incidents that are currently reported can’t be proven sufficiently for there to be a criminal prosecution. It’s my guess that if more incidents were reported, the rate of punishment might even decline, if they included more cases with proof problems. I recall reading (and maybe citing) somewhere a prosecutor pointing out that pursuing more rape prosecutions could backfire if the rate of conviction dropped because they took more difficult cases.
While we all agree that the serial predator should be expelled, the problem is that he’s no dummy. He doesn’t grab sober victims from the street. He chooses his victims carefully, and assaults them when they are intoxicated, and in locations where there are no witnesses. The first time he’s accused, there’s not enough evidence for the police to do anything. The same thing is true the second, third, and fourth times. At this point, I do want the college to expel him, as long as there is a fair procedure. But it’s * really, really hard* to put him in jail.
This is why I think it’s pretty important to figure out what portion of the problem is attributable to serial predators. If it’s a big portion, I think improved prevention measures like bystander intervention are key to reducing the incidence of the crime. Fear of punishment may not be a significant impediment to a sociopath.
“The impact on a person’s life from an expulsion”
Then don’t “go there.” Don’t be in a situation where you can get dinged, no matter how much you “thought” she was consenting.
Same with don’t plagiarize, don’t take others’ possessions, don’t drive drunk, don’t play with matches, don’t whatever. Face the individual responsibility.
“you can’t expect colleges to automatically jump expulsions off the charts”
Where does this come from? Who expects colleges to up the number? Some posters here?
Everyone expects colleges to up the numbers because that is the whole point of lowering the proof standard in the alternate system.
Well I think it goes both ways frankly and have said that. We have an issue of women doing things drunk they wouldn’t do sober. We have an issue of men drinking and then not understanding the situation clearly and doing something they might not normally do. It’s so much more than just talking to men or just talking to women. The behavioral shifts are subtle and occur over time. So yes don’t be in a situation where you can get dinged applies equally to boys and girls. Message to girls. Don’t take your clothes off and get in bed with a guy if you don’t want sex. (Actually since when did kids get so laissez faire about this?) Message to guys, if a girl takes her clothes off and gets in bed with you get out of your bed until you can ascertain what’s shes wanting. But it’s silly to discuss because alcohol is such a huge piece of this it clouds judgement of both parties - it does not always incapacitate but it clouds judgement of both men and women. That’s my position and I’m sticking with it. If you want to adjudicate these types of situations then you cannot take a sledge hammer to this because this situation is entirely different than that of a serial rapist - not even close. So yeah, I almost always agree with Hunt’s messages that reflect Hunt’s position and I feel very, very differently about a serial rapist than I do two kids who drink and crawl into bed together for whatever reason.
Hunt - I should clarify something. I was referring to reporting to the college, not the police, in my last few posts concerning the need to encourage victims to report especially because of the serial rapist problem. More specifically, we should encourage them to file complaints with the school. The Yale data suggests 80% of rapes aren’t even being reported to the school in any fashion.
Sorry for the confusion. In re-reading my own posts I realized that I myself have used the word “report” in multiple ways - 1) report an incident to the college 2) file a complaint with the college 3) report an incident to the police w/o details 4) file a police report. Sometimes it’s hard for me to write (or think!) clearly.
(Maybe there should even be a slimmed down process where the victim only gives their name and the name of the perpetrator but nothing need go further. However, if a repeat offense occurs at least the school has the information and contemporaneous evidence of a prior offense. It would make the job of those hearing the cases easier. Not sure if this creates legal problems or is even a good idea.)
Thanks for clarifying. I completely agree. More reporting to the college could be very important to identifying the serial predators in particular. Indeed, women should report “near miss” situations in which the person made improper advances short of rape–those may be the incidents that will stack up and make it clear that the individual is a predator.
“Everyone expects colleges to up the numbers because that is the whole point of lowering the proof standard in the alternate system.”
Which numbers? And if you mean punishments, please understand this can mean slaps on the wrist. Or more accuseds being vindicated. Nothing in T9 says let’s get more expulsions or suspensions. You may think it does, but it doesn’t.
I’m curious how everyone seems in complete agreement that colleges are turning a blind eye to underage drinking. People keep making blanket statements about things like parties with alcohol in “both school dorms and school buildings”. I have never seen nor heard about a school allowing alcohol in any of those situations.
When I was in school we had plenty of kids put on double secret probation for getting caught drinking in the dorms. All the drinking I know about in dorms at both the large State Us where I have kids is done behind closed doors (and generally consists of “pre-gaming”.
What actions do you think the schools should take? hidden cameras in the rooms? forced entry to locked rooms for spot checks?
@awcntdb made an analogy that if his company were to provide a room for underage people to drink, even if his co. didn’t provide the drinks, that he/it would get in big trouble. The problem I have with that analogy is that schools aren’t doing that. They aren’t providing rooms in school buildings (other than dorms), and you can’t count dorms because they aren’t provided for that reason.
If a student is doing some illegal activity in their room, whether it is selling drugs, watching child porn, etc., is the school responsible because they provided the room? of course not. The same thing goes for underage drinking.
One example I can think of where you could argue that schools could be more aggressive is during tailgating for football games etc. Even then, though, I would argue that since most kids are smart enough to put their drinks in red solo cups that lawyers would have a field day with policies that allowed officers to randomly search or confront what to them appeared to be underage students who might possibly be drinking.
Hunt - You’re way more lenient than I am. If I ever get put on trial, please serve on my jury ! 
If you believe the estimate that 80% of rapes aren’t even being reported to colleges (much less the police), then the scenario you painted is too rosy. He rapes (not just assaults) a girl; nothing whatsoever happens. He rapes another girl; nothing happens. Another one. Only 50% chance of being called to the Dean’s office after three. Only then do we debate whether there’s enough evidence.
How can these guys be so confident that the women they assault won’t report? Even if they have no conscience, don’t they live in fear of that? I guess they’re “good with people” (meant both sarcastically and seriously).
Drinking. Some are still strict, but many are not. My kids’ school: roughly, as long a it wasn’t on campus grounds. Dorm was ok. Some non-dorm events, ok. (There were some raucous outdoor traditions.) This is being changed by new admin.
I think there are several answers to this. First, I think a lot of these sociopathic predators, are, in fact, good with people–they are well-liked, friendly, active guys who nobody can believe are really rapists. That gives them the first layer of protection. Secondly, they exploit situations in which women are less likely to report–women who have had a lot to drink, who have attended a frat party, who have gone to his room or invited him to her room, with no witnesses around, etc. I think many women still blame themselves for these situations, and if they aren’t aware that this guy has a history of this kind of behavior, they may just do their best to get over it. Again, I think it helps him if he’s a good-looking likable guy–this makes it less likely for women to say that they would never have agreed to sleep with him. Finally, even if the women do report, he has engineered the situation to ensure that there won’t be a lot of evidence to show that he did something wrong. His defense will be consent, and even if the law goes to “yes means yes,” he’ll simply say that she said yes. If there are no other witnesses, this makes it hard to punish him. So he may be able to survive several complaints against him with limited punishment. Finally, doing this while evading punishment may be part of the thrill of doing it in the first place. The irony is that some of these predators would have little trouble finding genuinely willing sex partners.
4244, Hunt: [quote] While we all agree that the serial predator should be expelled, the problem is that he's no dummy. He doesn't grab sober victims from the street.** He chooses his victims carefully, and assaults them when they are intoxicated, and in locations where there are no witnesses.** The first time he's accused, there's not enough evidence for the police to do anything. The same thing is true the second, third, and fourth times. At this point, I do want the college to expel him, as long as there is a fair procedure. But it's really, really hard to put him in jail.
This is why I think it’s pretty important to figure out what portion of the problem is attributable to serial predators. If it’s a big portion, I think improved prevention measures like bystander intervention are key to reducing the incidence of the crime. Fear of punishment may not be a significant impediment to a sociopath.
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I agree with Hunt it’s important to figure out “what portion of the problem is attributable to serial predators.” Hunt’s observation that serial rapists will choose locations without witnesses is interesting to me. Regularly on these threads I’ve asked about the gang rape scenarios, whether somehow all the serial rapists in the area found each other and participated together. I think the serial rapist theory is easier for us to accept than the alternative, that 10% of our sons are rapists. However, if we accept Hunt’s observation, there is at least some doubt cast on the idea serial rapists are the problem. Of course, this may not be an either/or problem: serial rapists vs our sons as rapists. Perhaps both categories exist. That is what I tend to believe.
4601, a12simon: [quote] I can't believe we've come to this. Brown students trying to drug their classmates ! Why on earth would you even want to do this. Just buy a blow-up doll already and be done with it. Buy two and be a real stud. This is so unlike me and my college friends that I can't even conceive of it. On the other hand, guys do deliberately try to get their dates drunk, so maybe this is just viewed as the high-tech equivalent. Some days I'm ashamed to be a man. At the risk of being sexist I think the fact that 90+% of criminals are male says something deeply true and dark about the male psyche.
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I greatly appreciated this post. Another fraternity story has hit the news: http://www.wral.com/duke-fraternity-suspended-as-police-investigate-rape-claim/14371681/
3899 a12simon: [quote] 3. At the risk of offending some people, how do rates of reported sexually assaults vary with % in fraternities or on athletic teams?
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I have been waiting for the appropriate time to repost the following:
333, I wrote: [quote] I am going to repeat once again: I was in a sorority and my mom & aunts. Most males in my family have been in fraternities for four generations. I believe in fraternity gang rape. I don't think it is possible for the "good" fraternities to offset the bad when fraternity rape exists. Men not having the option to participate in fraternities won't be disadvantaged in the same way a women is who is raped. Closing fraternities won't eliminate campus rape. It may change campus culture. Campus culture has to change for rape to decrease. I am willing to believe in the serial rapist theory and it is quite comforting in a way. However, I also believe in the scenario in the Rolling Stone article where a young man who might not rape under other circumstances is corrupted by his peer group.
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I am ready to close fraternities. I doubt this is possible because of the political power they wield.
Fraternities are not the cause. They have a lot of positive attributes.
We didn’t remove the tax status of the Catholic Church for harboring pedophiles. We didn’t cancel Penn State’s football program, let alone all college football, because they were protecting a child rapist.
There is no way to argue that fraternities are any more special than any other social group - like Mitt Romney cutting the hair of the “gay” boy while his HS friends held him down. Or politicians who are corrupt. Or the band hazing killing.
We can’t just ban all social groups because they are havens for criminals to take advantage of the weak-minded and the weak.
However, the colleges must be strict enough, and NOT just throw out a rapist but be adult=responsible enough to bring the police in FROM DAY ONE so that the guy does not move around. Like in the Virginia murder, where the guy had been raping at other colleges.
Because I believe all the posts in the last day have been very valuable in advancing the discussion, I am reading over a lot of offensive stuff and not responding in an effort not to further derail the thread. That however, is over the line. I can’t not object to describing rape survivors as “weak-minded and weak.”
adding:
And only because it is my belief that we may have a lot of young lurkers at this point, I’m stating what many of us believe goes without saying: Rape is never the fault of the one raped. Never.
Here is an article about student reaction to the new policies at Brown re: alcohol and parties and fraternities
http://www.browndailyherald.com/2015/01/22/undergrads-question-new-alcohol-policy/
There is also a bill in the state legislature for mandatory reporting:
http://www.browndailyherald.com/2015/01/22/proposed-bill-mandates-campus-sexual-assault-reporting/
I share your opinion that they’re a net negative. Many schools are stuck with their historical legacy of a large Greek culture. Those whose student bodies are < 15% Greek could probably feasibly close fraternities (and sororities, but for different reasons). I’d hope they would. I respect the freedom of association issues, so my own position isn’t that strong.
Among my peer group are quite a few men who were in fraternities 30 years ago. I would say that about 1/3 of them believe that fraternities are a net negative. They were perfectly happy members, but now can look back with the benefit of hindsight. About 20% think they formed some of the best friendships of their lives there. Most view it as just a good place to meet people and have parties.
Here’s my own amateur sociology on closing frats: Nature abhors a vacuum. It depends on the size of the school and the other social options available, but there seems to be a definite need for student run social groups about 100-200 students in size. Students want a way to break down a larger student body into smaller groups with a stronger sense of belonging (for good and bad). They need to be able to throw parties, hire a band, have alcohol which a university organization can’t do, make their own rules, exclude outsiders, etc. So it may not just be about closing fraternities but evolving different social institutions to replace them. Co-ed groups could help.