northwesty’s (and other’s) point about due process protections other than the standard of proof is important. Even though you can’t be put in jail in a civil proceeding, lots of pretty bad consequences can occur. All your money can be taken away. You can lose your house. You can lose your children. These are all civil, not criminal. I don’t think of expulsion as quite the same as a criminal matter; there are plenty of worse civil outcomes.
Not sure if you’ve dealt with these sorts of legal matters before, but I’d probably equate expulsion to “injunctive relief” in a civil context (not as a matter of law, but of my own personal ethics) (Injunctions are used to compel parties to do something or not do something, and I believe(?) courts typically scrutinize these carefully). At least for private colleges, no one has a right to attend.
One analogy I’m thinking about is to compare rape to other physical assaults. Say a severe beating. If one student put another in the ICU wouldn’t we expel them for a first offense even without criminal proceedings? The only difference I see between a rape and a severe beating is the ease of proof (and the willingness of the victim to pursue criminal charges, but I don’t think this is relevant). I haven’t researched this but don’t colleges expel for fighting that doesn’t result in severe bodily damage or even if there is no criminal charge?
I agree. And since you followed up my post, I won’t shut up just yet.
We need to be doing a much better job of teaching our sons how to behave. That is a fact. We really should be ashamed. It is all of our responsibilities. Even as a mom who thinks there is a great chance of meteor damage than a false rape accusation of one of my sons, I am going to take on this group responsibility. We have got to change the mindset here.
The site linked by Marie1234, shows that between 2006-2010 a total of 262 claims were filed alleging violations of Title IX in sexual assault cases. 121 claims by accusers resulting in over $10 million in payments, and 141 by the accused, resulting in almost $26 million in payments.
Yes and that is “old” because claims escalated in 2011 - today and the link reflects data from 2006-2010. Speculation is that the Duke LaCrosse settlement alone approached $50 million just for those 3 young men.
@bearpanther very interesting, thanks. That seems to indicate (at least to me) that all this talk about how things will change (and need to change) because of all these many lawsuits that falsely accused men are winning is based on faulty information.
All the lawsuits will form process and procedures - doesn’t matter if an accused is upset over a decision, or thinks they were not afforded due processes or if it’s the claimant. The point is that universities are now entrenched in activities, investigating and adjudicating what are essentially criminal matters and unhappy people who can afford to sue or who get representation based on success are going to sue. That’s just a by-product. It is what it is but you, I and anyone who has a kid in college should “care” if university insurance policies are paying out tens of millions of dollars each year in claims because of trickle down effect.
bearpanther, you realize there’s a law firm behind that site, with a link right to the firm’s pages? So, of course, the $ amounts are there. “We have successfully represented students who have been accused of sexual assault on campus.”
What I’d like to know is, of all these complaints, how many lead to fault pointed at the accused and then expulsion?
This is an old UVa case from 2004 but interesting to me. I don’t really know what to even make of some of it in terms of filing civil charges, the male’s right to due process, differences between men and women’s perspectives about sexual contact, alcohol issues, advocacy,etc. I don’t have the link but google “The true story of a false rape claim at UVa.” She claimed rape, apparently a jury did not find enough evidence but she went on to file civil charges. Annie Hylton vs. Matt Hamilton.
I am also honestly confused as to where bearpanther’s stats include the Duke case or not. I am seeing many news stories from 2007 saying that a settlement was reached.
There was another one from way back then saying that the IRS wanted millions in back taxes from one of the men (and used that figure to guesstimate what the award was).
But then I found stories from early in 2014 saying that Duke had reached a settlement with the players. Why was this news in 2014?
I’m just guessing that the money was included in the figures that BP linked.
Before I go Google it I am going to see if my memory is correct. I believe that is the case where he was found guilty in Civil Court of rape (or assault) and she won a 5 figure award. IIRC he went on to become a hedge fund guy but declared bankruptcy in order not to have to pay her. Maybe his parents homeowners paid??? Let me go see if I am right
Edit- I was basically right. It was a 6 figure award. However…a follow-up article says one juror who was interviewed claimed that they found Hylton was not raped. It is interesting then that they still awarded her $150,000. For what, then? Obviously they agreed that he did something to her
Here (also from that site) is a list of cases including ones more recent than 2010. Some are still pending and some have been confidentially settled. I think all of the ones listed are men suing. Most have media or complaint links:
@lookingforward, the information on payments I put out did not seem to come from a law firm–can you show where it says that? The only places I found were FACE and SAVE which both appear to be advocacy organizations, and the lawsuits listed were not all handled by the same firm.
Edit to add: I see on the FACE website a link to a list of attorneys who have defended the accused in the past, but they also say this:
"FACE does not engage in the practice of law, cannot provide legal advice or representation, and does not enter into attorney-client relationships with those we help. Although there is information on our site about legal issues, it is not legal advice. "
Estimates/rumors are that the all in cost to Duke for the lacrosse fiasco was a nice tidy $100 million. But no one knows the real numbers since all the parties are bound by non-disclosure.
For you legal historians. In the olden days in Britain, it was basically impossible to get juries to convict. Jurors essentially required 100% certainty. Wrongfully convicting even 1 out of 100 was unacceptable. Since many crimes were punishable by death, sending 1 person to the gallows wrongfully made the judge/jurors tantamount to murderers.
To get around that problem, 18th century British judges started to instruct juries that it was OK to convict if guilt was proven “beyond a reasonable doubt.” What we consider today the highest standard was, in fact, adopted as a LOWER standard that would result in more convictions!!
The universities make up are how large an industry? Hundreds of billions?
The cost of these court cases, and nobody wants to stop people from suing, is tens of millions over multiple years.
These lawsuits are a cost of doing business and women are suing too.
If the campus culture changes, as alh wrote, there will be fewer incidents and probably fewer suits. That would be my guess but I am not 100 percent sure. I have less than a reasonable doubt this is correct.
The link to the firm is there, under the “advice” tab. FACE says founded by 3 moms of college-aged kids, but I see comments like this and go “ooof:”
“The school’s interest is not in being fair. The school is not trying to make sure that the truth comes out. Rather, the school is trying to make sure it protects itself.”
Anyway, HuffPo has some review where the Freedom of Info Act was used to pull some details and, depending on whether it was the smaller or larger pool, of those judged guilty, maybe 13% expelled, maybe 30%. But that’s only those found guilty. Don’t see how many found guilty. someone else wuld have to look deeper at this.
I looked back at the Yale 6 mo 2013 info and (quickly) see, of 13 cases (UG/non-consensual only,) 9 cases where they found fault: 7 reprimands and/or counseling, 1 probation, one suspension through summer. In 2 cases, insufficient evidence, 2 cases, accuser decided not to cooperate.
When you consider all colleges, tens of millions over multiple years is not a lot of money.
The Duke case is not in any way representative: those students were victimized by a lot of people, but the ringleader was a corrupt prosecutor, Michael Nifong. To say the least, Nifong is not exactly the poster boy for colleges letting the police handle sexual assault charges.
