That part I understand, but I just realized it was a school or more specifically a school that accepts federal funds thing. So, is it a law-law for police and prosecutors to deal with (which seems more often than not impossible do to the lying thing with no witnesses likely to be around anyway) or is it only for the college panels. I assume it is mostly for the college panels for obvious reasons but can a girl actually call the cops and say I went to his room and took off my clothes and got into bed and then I wanted him to stop but I didn’t say anything and he didn’t so I was raped. Please make an arrest. Because, somehow I just don’t foresee that happening. But, we’ll see how it goes, I guess.
This is a case where the girl wanted to fool around but not go all the way.
So…we have a lot of honorable women here.
Many of you may have been in similar situations as the Duke woman.
If you wanted to fool around, but not have sexual intercourse, and the guy did have sexual intercourse with you, would you call this rape?
CF - I’m not 100% sure how to interpret your comment. If it is a sociological observation then I don’t agree but ok. But if you are talking about the posters on this thread I think you are being very unfair. People serve alcohol for reasons other than to render someone unconscious. And no one has defended having sex with an unconscious person. There are legitimate questions about “how drunk is too drunk to consent”, and how do you tell, as well as practical questions about proof. As a matter of morality, I don’t think I disagree with you at all. In fact, from comments you’ve made I think I might even draw the line tighter than you do. As a matter of a legal / pseudo-legal standard, I think reasonable people can disagree.
I went to a state flagship with a large greek presence in the 70s. Savvy women knew not to drink the punch. We had to assume the punch was drugged. Drugged women were raped in fraternity houses. (No - not at all fraternity houses)
Googling around it seems that 20 years after my college experience, in the 90s, the existence of date rape drugs was offically acknowledged and some laws enacted to make their use illegal.
For as long as I can remember, up till last year when a niece started college, we tell women not to drink that punch. Don’t drink from an open container. Don’t leave your drink unattended. This advice is based on the idea date rape drugs are an unfortunate possibility at parties. The idea has been that women should have the sense to protect themselves from this foreseeable risk.
I have been feeling more than a little irrational about this for decades,
Read his court filing if you want his side of the story. It is interesting reading.
It was posted above:
I don’t think so. The impression I had was that he had been ordered to stay away from her. If so, to enter his actual dwelling seems pretty damned strange, to me. It’s not as if it were an academic building or a public social event at some neutral site. I mean, if he were in fact guilty–which remains an open question, IMHO–she should not have to avoid campus events on the off chance he might be there. But this was his HOUSE.
Rohypnol is illegal in the United States. That is the trade name of the drug. Roche makes that drug.
So…that opens up other issues…
If a frat has that drug in its punch, even if there isn’t a sexual assault, there is an illegal drug in that drink.
Of course. Because it would BE rape.
Well… That is the Duke case…with one addition…how well was this communicated…
Momrath, thanks for the link.
I apologize, al2simon. I obviously was not clear AT ALL here. I wasn’t talking about any posters here. Let me just start again.
If we consider people that have sex with unconscious people, those people are unashamed about it. They take videos and send them around to their friends. They are bragging. This does not seem to be a social taboo in their circles.
If we consider people who give roofies to other people in order to incapacitate them and rape them, those people (as far as I know) do not take pictures and videos and send the pictures and videos around. As far as I know, they don’t brag in public that they have drugged women and then had intercourse with them. Perhaps this is socially taboo even in their circles.
Some people (I am not talking about people in this thread) intentionally urge women to have drink after drink, so the women might be more amenable to sex. Doing so is not a social taboo in some circles-- think of that frat in Georgia (?) where one brother sent around an email telling his brothers to keep handing women drinks.
If I wanted to fool around but not have intercourse I did not take my clothes off and get into bed with a man. If I didn’t want to do something I said no. If necessary, I got up and left.
I never encountered a situation in which this did not work.
4510
I’m not actually so sure about your roofie observation. It is interesting. If true, maybe it goes back to dstark’s comment they can be arrested for illegal drugs. Maybe they do understand that as a crime.
adding: If roofies were a social taboo, why do we acknowledge their existence in such a casual manner?
I would absolutely like to believe in this social taboo. But I can’t see there has been any social pressure in my lifetime that impacted this problem.
CF - Thank you for clarifying and my sincere apologies for misinterpreting your intent.
Speaking personally, there are some types of crimes I can understand intellectually. I’m not the Shadow but I do know about some evils that lurk in the hearts of men. I can understand why people would rob a house for money. I can even understand while someone would kill someone in a fit of rage.
But they’re some crimes I don’t understand. I don’t understand why you’d want to have sex with an unconscious person. Even if you’re talking about Kate Upton. I don’t think I’m engaged in moral preening. I’ve been in bed with sleeping women and don’t have to guess at how I’d feel. There’s nothing that’s appealing to me about it at all.
I doubly don’t understand why you’d invite other guys to gang rape your girlfriend. And film it. And send it around. All the rapists have issues, but the boyfriend has even deeper problems. So I’m purely speculating -
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I’d just say that these guys are degenerates. I can’t go deeper. I’m not a psychiatrist and classifying degenerates doesn’t interest me. If they had incapacitated her with roofies they’d film that too. I don’t think it’s because there’s a more of taboo. But what do I know about rapist etiquette?
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It’s just a matter of statistics. I think rapists filming themselves is pretty rare (if for no other reason than not wanting to get caught). Roofies are rarer than alcohol incapacitation, so it’s a doubly rare event and we just haven’t seen these kind of stories.
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People used to say “rape isn’t about sex, it’s a crime of violence”. For some reason they don’t say this as much anymore. I hope this isn’t offensive - In many of these college sex incidents I tend to think it’s usually motivated by sex. But in the Vanderbilt case it seems like violence or violence related to me.
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The most disturbing thing to me is not that it happened. Evil occurs; I understand that. It’s that they forwarded the video on to other people. Frankly, I’d probably search the conduct code thoroughly looking for a way to expel anyone who had the video for more than 24 hours and didn’t report it.
Marie maybe start here: “sex without consent is rape.”
Now, friends, that came from an episode of Law and Order, not some mighty reference point, but does show how simply one could boil this down.
Now it gets confusing on two parts: 1) in reality, some couples don’t need to consent to proceed, they’re fine with rolling into bed and waking up there, some hours later, post-sex. They do NOT later complain. Fine. Dandy. It has virtually no bearing.
And 2) many people IRL and on this thread, want to see all the permutations, the exact details. the who-did-what that maybe-just maybe- made it seem she was, indeed, consenting. Like, BP’s example where she takes her clothes off. That doesn’t equate to consent.
Alh and Dstark- grain alcohol. the drug of choice at that house i knew when I was in college. Probably still, among many.
Ethanol was the drug of choice, LF? That can be pretty potent…
I’m sorry, but reality check: who voluntarily takes all of her clothes off in front of some random guy just because she’s wet? Or takes off all her clothes and gets into bed with someone if they aren’t consenting to at least some kind of sex? If it is an established BF or a spouse, sure. In other cases, I don’t buy it.
LF - In a criminal case there are going to be intent questions. The criminal mind is a part of the case, thus if he has no intent he may get off. I know you don’t like it but that is what happens when these cases hit the criminal justice system. So if your rolling into bed girl later claims rape she will inevitably have proof problems if she made no effort to roll out. And, as momofthreeboys has repeatedly tried to point out a jury is supposed to ask these questions since that is basically their job. The college system seems to be eliminating these details, though.
And, the young women in the McLeod case appears to have been worried about whether or not she was technically cheating on her boyfriend that night. None of this is simple at all unless it is and those cases aren’t the ones where there is all that much back and forth. Like Vanderbilt.
Consolation, the Duke woman was consenting to some kind of sex…just not sexual intercourse.
I don’t think we know how rare it really is. We already acknowledge underreporting of rape. These drugs are difficult to detect. I don’t think we have a real idea how common this practice is. I understand decent people find date rape drug stories unbelievable. College women arrange their lives in such a way as to protect themselves from date rape drugs. That makes me think it isn’t considered that unusual an event.
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Now I hope that isn’t another b***y post. I am not having a very good day here. I apologize all round.