See, all the extra distracts, again.
“Communicating poorly with a date”- ??? That’s an excuse?
You have a narrow definition of rape, marie. Fine for you. But the big ol’ govt disagrees with you.
Well. not really LF which is also a little off somehow since they only disagree if it happens on a federally funded campus. Remember, these men are not being found guilty in criminal courts. This is about college panels as an alternate justice system and if they are dangerous rapists expulsion is not an appropriate sentence, at all.
What is wrong with asking if she said “no” It is tried. It is tested. It is used in healthcare and other fields. I don’t understand the preoccupation with saying yes especially because as enacted in CA it covers implied yes. It feels weak to me and legally shaky. In almost every case I cannot imagine a jury not thinking that some woman who takes off her own clothes or asks about condom is giving permission.
But the sticking point is that affirmative consent is not all that clear either. The concept, as I understand it, is Yes in words or enthusiastic action, constitutes affirmative consent. Further, what is being consented to? If he asks her to get in bed naked and fool around and she (again not incapacitated) does so freely and with enthusiasm, is she consenting to sex if he doesn’t use those exact words? Is it then her responsibility to say no? Or is it still rape?
Doesn’t No means No still important? There are still some who believe that No means maybe, unfortunately. And isn’t part of education to teach women to be clear in what they want and how to effectively say no. I hate the idea that women are not strong enough to express themselves. In the college construct we are discussing, I don’t believe that most girls don’t say no because they are afraid for their lives. They may be afraid the man won’t like them or that their social life will suffer, but not that they will be killed or beat up (in the vast majority of cases and yes that is just my opinion).
Affirmative consent may be the rule in most places and should be the rule in all, but it is still more likely the situation will be resolved without assault if no is communicated - loudly and clearly. And much more likely that if the worst happens, the woman will have a stronger case.
College is different. Unless you work with your rapist, out in the working world you can generally avoid the perpetrator. At college you may have classes together or live on the same floor. There has to be some additional ways to keep a man who has been found guilty away from his victims.
Title IX requires the college to separate the kids so that aren’t in the same classes and minimize their campus paths crossing. The complainant could also look into a restraining order but might be difficult in the absence of factors.
I am not talking about Title IX. I am just asking if the women on this thread agree we shouldn’t be touched without permission.
I am not saying I can’t protect myself. I can. I don’t think I should have to. I don’t think I should have to punch out the kiss stealer or slap that back seat groper. I am not asking about real life.
Should we have the right not to be touched without permission? Do we agree with that idea? That is the question. Nothing else.
We’ll you all know I don’t agree with it LOL and for several reasons
Well…as a man, I don’t want to be touched without permission…by a man or a woman.
I don’t want anybody touching my wife, daughters, son, parents, friends, people I don’t know, and my cat if I had one, without permission.
Healthcare uses Yes Means Yes. Your doctor can’t do procedures on you without getting your permission first. For most procedures, that permission has to be written.
No Means No in the healthcare field is funny to imagine. “I went to the hospital to give birth, and they did a nose job!” “Well you didn’t say No, did you?” It’s funny to imagine until you remember that some unethical doctors have done sterilizations on women without their consent. Then it stops being funny.
It certainly is important to teach women to be clear in what they want, and also to teach men to respect women’s expressed rejections. I’m with you there.
(Hi alh! I’m still here.)
In healthcare if you say no that is the end, if you say yes you sign a release. Yes is a transaction generally while no stops whatever is ocurring.
i don’t know where this transaction idea came from and frankly I don’t care. If I don’t want to be resuscitated, I have to sign a form. That is how it works around here.
Personally, I think “Yes means Yes” can be a good teaching device/code to live by, but using it as a shorthand for the affirmative consent standard is very confusing to people who are trying to figure out what it means. In my case, I had read some misleading editorials about the CA affirmative consent law in the Wall Street Journal. One of the posters in this thread (I think Cardinal Fang) told me I was wrong and that I should read the actual law. Since I was in fact wrong, I changed my mind.
Here’s the text of the law that requires changes in CA state colleges’ (and others) codes of conduct
“Affirmative, conscious, and voluntary agreement to engage in sexual activity” doesn’t seem so crazy to me. I do wish the text was clearer that consent could be nonverbal since there’s a lot of nonverbal communication between people during sex, but that seems to be understood. The “Yes means Yes” slogan seems to ignore this fact. IMO, adopting “Yes means Yes” as the legal standard would be crazy, but CA didn’t, so whatever.
That’s not to say I’m completely ok with the language that has been adopted in the affirmative consent standard. I think it ignores understandings that people in a relationship develop, so I’m unhappy with the standard in that sense. Since I am neither the king of California nor a college student there, I guess I’ll just see how it works in practice.
Interestingly enough, here’s excerpts from the CA criminal code
I’m a little surprised that (i) spouses can’t rape each other (ii) there doesn’t seem to be an affirmative consent standard in the CA criminal code. Maybe I missed something?
Saying yes can be sexy.
Some of you should try it.
That scene in When Harry Met Sally… When Meg Ryan shouted in the restaurant… She wasn’t saying, "No. No. No! 
Spouses can rape each other; it’s a different part of the code, 262 instead of 261.
The part about consent is 261.6
CF - Thanks. I like the way they phrased it - “positive cooperation in act or attitude pursuant to an exercise of free will”.
Just saw this and thought all might be interested.
If I am not mistaken, I believe that Meg Ryan’s “yes, yes, yes” referred to a feeling that occurred after sexual intercourse had been initiated. But perhaps I am wrong.
I thought it referred to the Katz’s turkey sandwich she ordered. “I’ll have what she’s having”.
Great link, PG. That film should be interesting. AFAIK, the filmmakers are muckrakers, but reputable. Their last film was The Invisible War, about sexual assaults by American soldiers on American soldiers.