“She didn’t prosecute, the state prosecuted.”
This is important and it’s what always happens in the criminal justice system. People forget this when the concern is the victim getting validation which is what the school system seems to be trying to achieve and so many of these cases have the victim saying that’s what she wanted. It’s really not the point at all…
Trying to reeducate society so there are no criminals is way to idealistic for me. Sorry.
As for last night, the talk about guns had a mighty wild west feel. ‘Ain’t no one gonna bother me. I gotta gun.’ As if.
One of the first rules of gun sensibility is don’t go talkin’ renegade. And don’t assume every time you’ll have it in hand, no one will overpower you, etc.
The sororities aren’t being told they are weak. They are being asked to think. Not just, “But I want to party.” (As parents, most of us went through his with our kids.)
The objection: “You’re telling us we’re inferior, sexual objects.” Not how it see it. It’s telling them they have the power to make a statement over one weekend.
ps. I remember a friend who refused her husband’s name because of the patriarchy thing. And a friend pointed out this woman was choosing to keep her father’s surname. We tend to focus on what we think are such simple, obvious steps forward and miss the more complicated “full think.”
What school system are you talking about, marie?
The campus rape tribunal alternate adjudication system for sexual assault. It’s fine for misconduct but completely crazy for criminal activity.
I am still resolutely convinced the colleges have to deal with violations of their codes of conduct.
A victim going to the police is also in my playbook. So is the college making a determination that a complaint (or other violation) is serious enough to trump privacy requirements.
If we’re going to cycle back to the “But they aren’t criminal courts” position, I’ll still say, “Nope, they aren’t criminal courts. This is about the college’s community and acceptable behaviors of its members.”
The thread tosses around spin-y phrases like “tribunal alternate adjudication system.”
Ever have someone tell you a wrong behavior was actually ok because no one reprimanded them? Our kids: well, the teacher didn’t say anything or another saying * well I never got caught?* Did you only sanction them when it got formal attention? Or did you take the position, these are our expectations?
Of course, most of us have had our kids argue that we’re not judge and jury. Still, we try to maintain order, no?
LF- Yeah, I was trying to get it all in there in response to a question that seemed to have no idea what was meant by the school system. But here’s the thing. The school system supporters are not encouraging the use of the criminal system. In fact, they see the college system as an alternate system and they are the ones pushing all of this along. You really don’t have to be an investigative journalist to figure out what is going on here.
HSdad, this thread isn’t picking up on your desire to boot them out. Nor in validating your view. Nor the idea the college calls the cops and says, these kids are violating fed law. We aren’t biting for this sidetrack. Which is why I say you should gather up your ducks and line them up on a thread dedicated to that issue. A fresh thread would allow you to attract new posters who have seen this thread age and aren’t interested. Go for it.
The issue of campus drinking is much bigger than what one poster on one thread insists is the solution. “Off with their heads!” You may find it interesting to look into it, become informed about the various perspectives.
Btw, multiple states allow underage drinking, under various circumstances. That’s law, too.
No, marie.
*The school system supporters are not encouraging the use of the criminal system. * That’s a confusion on this thread, party from those worried about the possible sanctions and partly some spin-y comments being taken as truths. Title IX tells the colleges to let the accusers know they can go to the police. I don’t see how we ignore that part of Title IX.
In fact, they see the college system as an alternate system and they are the ones pushing all of this along.
No, some on this thread suggested reasons a victim might prefer not to go to the police. Lots of talk about unsympathetic police, low conviction rates, publicity, etc. Some victims may see the college system under T9 as one venue, maybe their only preferred venue.
The only folks “pushing” that the college review is an “alternate” are those who want to eliminate college actions.
Long threads do get occasional detours. That’s different than a hijack.
My information is coming from the professional advocates pushing the college system which didn’t just pop up out of thin air because someone at the OCR got a brilliant idea. Those people want victim’s choice and are opposed to mandatory reporting and yes, you are correct the college system is easier and one can certainly understand why it may be preferable to hear guilty somewhere if that’s what you want for some reason and your case is one the grey area unprovable ones, which is most of them. I don’t know who wants to eliminate college actions which in a criminal case are rather irrelevant anyway. This thing called jail pretty much solves that problem.
I agree with HSD2. Dial back the alcohol and you dial back all the stuff we all are concerned about – the date rapes, the frat problems, the stranger rapes, the domestic violence. All that bad stuff.
Hannah Graham is still a student at UVA if she was not profoundly drunk that Saturday night. Yeardley Love is still alive and George Hugueley is today just some d-bag living in DC without the booze. No way the Vandy football thing happens if the victim is not passed out and the perps are not drunk too. No way 90+% of these incidents happen without one or both people involved being profoundly hammered. Every other measure being discussed here and all of OCR’s efforts are basically at the warm bucket of spit level as compared to doing something about the booze. Alcohol is CAUSATION here, not just correlation.
So what to do about the booze? I’m no prohibitionist and I enjoy my cocktails. I am also very much aware that it is easier to convince my wife to get busy if she has a few glasses of wine at dinner on Saturday night. So maybe I can be accused of being a rape culture guy or a predator… But I like what UVA, and especially Dartmouth, are trying out.
Essentially, those colleges are re-writing the moronic drinking laws that have been adopted by the states under duress from the Feds attaching strings to their funding (sound familiar?). At UVA and Dartmouth, de facto, beer and wine are legal for 18-21 year olds. But not hard liquor. TBD how that will get implemented and enforced (execution is always more important than policy). But way more promising than anything OCR is doing or anything happening in the cluster between college conduct proceedings and the criminal justice system.
You can buy a handle of 80 proof flavored vodka for $15 bucks or less. THAT, not roofies, is the predominant date rape drug. That’s 59 fluid ounces total and 24 ounces of pure alcohol. In contrast a case of Bud costs $18, 288 fluid ounces and 14 ounces of pure alcohol. Banning (if colleges really do execute on the ban) the hard stuff is like putting a reasonable speed limit on college partying. At UVA and Dartmouth, they’ll let you party at 45 mph but not 100 mph. Let’s hope it works.
There is no plot, marie. OCR added sex issues, gender discrimination, to the long standing Title IX, when they realized these issues, too, deny full access to educational opportunities and should be tackled. Like it or not, professionals- and approved through the govt.
I have never said the college system is easier. I do feel some women will prefer to keep the mater in-house, so to say. For various reasons. It still leaves the college some discretion, been over that.
I think you may be confusing what T9 says, what some advocates have said, and what some posters have said.
Title IX is not a plot to remove crimes from the criminal system. Period. I have zero concern the justice system is going to come tumbling down.
It forces colleges to acknowledge the problem and the complaints and act. A good thing. You may still go to the police.
I don’t see how anyone says, have the college sit on their hands, bury their heads in the sand, and pretend this problem doesn’t exist. Or cavalierly say, oh let’s wait and see if the DA decides to prosecute. And if he/she doesn’t, whew, there was no problem.
We’re aware of the decades of untangling the mess when the church ignored abuse. Wouldn’t we have liked a mandate on how they review? Would we say, omg, they’re taking it out of the hands of he judicial system?? Or, leave everything in place and wait (oh, that was part of the problem.)
The college system is easier. That’s just a fact and it’s why those concerned with due process don’t much care for the idea of labeling the guy a rapist based on accusations that will never, ever be proven. Also, the desire to ignore the alcohol component strikes me as curious since it is the elephant in the room. But, I am not calling anything a plot. lol.
Anyone who has followed along this post knows that I firmly believe this and firmly believe that students should get MIPs although i’m not the one and expel, i do believe in redemption but I could support 3 MIPs and you’re out. I do like the Dart mouth solution if they can actually implement. The flavored vodkas are a real, real, real problem especially for young women. I didn’t even know that until my boys told me.
I don’t think Title IX was a “plot” to move criminal sexual conduct from the criminal system…but it did give girls that don’t want their story scrutinized an “out” but i think the days of expelling with no evidence are on the way out anyway and I have no problem if a young women simply wants some guy in a different dorm or wants her schedule changed. Education and counseling for both kids is probably very appropriate. If a college suspects that the woman’s story might meet the criminal test, then call the police and let them do the investigation and make a determination if it’s prosecutable or not. I’m not sure why this is so very difficult. The victim can cooperate or not cooperate I don’t really care frankly because if the state has a case they will get the accused off the street. I just want police involved if there is criminal behavior on campuses and that seems very logical and reasonable and a huge percent of the population can’t believe this doesn’t happen anyway. The rest of the juvenile drinking and whinny behavior about who did what to whom, the screaming and yelling and name calling by both sides, I can live without because frankly most of it is not criminal and most of it is disgusting adolescent behavior and not what I’d expect from the nation’s best and brightest.
" When I read the media of yet another campus rape report, I see that either or both (typically both) of the kids were drunk or high. I haven’t done a scientific survey. "
The Duke ADPhi victim was date-rape-drugged with hot chocolate.
Brw - my son is currently an RA at an elite school (and a fraternity member fwiw). He has had to report his residents drinking booze (he has to watch them pour it down the drain, he can’t touch it) and he absolutely gets support from the school in this regard.
Leaving aside rape for the moment. What is the criminal penalty for using a date rape drug on someone? I assume it’s a felony?
Good Pizza. I honestly don’t have a problem with 18-21 year olds drinking beer (and wine), but hard liquor should be banned and should be treated as misconduct. The college that my son attended that had a grant did not allow any alcohol in campus owned or campus affiliated properties and the parents got a nice letter at home if their kid was caught and the kid got a note in their discipline file. i even like the idea of no “cans” on campus - keep parties to keggers, if we’re going to let them break the law then let them do it in the open rolling a keg across campus. My second son was so disappointed in a college we toured on a Saturday and there were cans everywhere including the creek running through campus - my environmental science son was totally disgusted…
My college son said girls don’t “like” to drink beer because it’s too fattening but I think it’s more about the flavored vodkas and the ability to hide a flask. I think anybody that drinks whipped cream flavored vodka needs their head examined 
Since following laws is dependent on the honor system, any entity can re-write a law, until successfully challenged otherwise. And just because an entity is doing something and is not challenged on it yet does not mean it is not creating a fiasco in the waiting.
Before the Fed law change and MADD, I remember how easy it was to go into a bar to get a drink at 16 and 17. It was a breeze, and it was so easy I can remember the times I got turned down, as they were so few. Today, any restaurant or bar takes a huge risk knowingly serving underage people; a good fake ID is fine, but no ID or an obvious fake ID is a risk. Last year, a restaurant in my area got shut down for a month, fined 50k, lost liquor license for 3 months once re-opened, and put on year probation for serving the local college kids. Yet, a college down the street could do the same with no penalty? I am not convinced this can last for long given the connection between sexual allegations and actual assaults and alcohol.
All it will take is something to happen to the child of a parent who is willing to challenge the status quo, and the perpetrator is a drunk student. A lawsuit could be filed that seeks to find the college liable because the college knowingly allows underage drinking and expressly has polices, which promote underage drinking - something no other business establishment in the town can do and remain open. And yes, I bet a lobby will soon form shortly thereafter to have colleges enforce drinking laws.
Also would love to see implementation. Are colleges going to card students or are the bartenders openly going to serve underage people? Funny if a bartender at a school party serves students, but also works downtown and cannot legally serve same students in his / her restaurant or bar. I say funny, but that is a legal dilemma for the college in my view.
For the record, I have oft stated that if laws are not going to be enforced, then put the age back to 18, provide security, bouncers, and bartenders who cut people off, same as any nightclub or bar. And also enforce a “If you are drunk go back to your room or to some detox facility” policy. Colleges need to step up and take responsibility for allowing a debacle on their campuses, and to stop pretending that their policies have nothing to do with the current situation.
In Michigan it’s sexual misconduct in the 1st, 2nd ,3rd or 4th degree depending on whether there is penetration or not., whether there is a weapon or not, whether there is an assault or not. If there is contact but no penetration it “could” be a misdemeanor, but it’s a high court misdemeanor. So in Michigan there is a possibility that it could be a misdemeanor (giving someone a date rape drug)
1st 1st degree (felony): A sexual act involving penetration - (usually involves a weapon or extreme force)
2nd Sexual contact (No penetration) with the genital area, groin, inner thigh, buttock or breast, and usually involves weapon or force
3rd degree Sexual Penetration and any of the following:
Force or coercion; or
Victim is incapacitated (unable to consent to due age, mental challenges, intoxication, date rape drug, etc.).
4th degree (misdemeanor): Sexual Contact and any of the following:
Force or Coercion
Victim incapacity (unable to consent to due age, mental challenges, intoxication, date rape drug, etc.).
It’s a felony to even HAVE date rape drugs.