All UVa frats on suspension

Parents Forum
5261

I know how to use Google, thanks, HighSchoolDad. Unlike you, I also know how to click the links and read what they say. Let’s review, shall we? You said “The increase in binge drinking among women, though, is entirely due to marketing. Pretty much everyone agrees to that and a quick google search will show that.” You say

(1) that the increase in college women’s binge drinking is entirely due to marketing
(2) pretty much everyone agrees that the increase is due to marketing

We’d like to see some peer reviewed research backing that up. You provided nothing of the sort. You gave me a Google search, but the Google search does nothing to back up the claim. Perhaps that’s why you didn’t post the links: because then people would click on them and discover your claim is full of crap. Let’s look at the links.

Link 1: http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/10/chug-chug-chug-why-more-women-are-binge-drinking/

A Time magazine article. Already suspect. What does it say about flavored vodkas?

“Marketing may be playing a role” is not the same as “everyone agrees marketing is the entire cause.” In fact, your first link disproves the statement entirely, because Jernigan obviously does not agree that marketing is the entire cause.

Link 2: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/women-alcoholics-red-wine-chocolate/story?id=20639212

An ABC news interview of a alcoholic woman who wrote a book about female alcoholics. Does she say that marketing is the entire cause of the increase in binge drinking among women? Nope.

Link 3: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-06-26-spady-binge-drinking_x.htm

A sad story from USA Today about a college girl who died of alcohol poisoning. Nothing about marketing causing college drinking, though the story does mention that some bars have cheap drinks.

Link 4: http://www.alcoholpolicymd.com/alcohol_and_health/alcopops_and_girls.htm
A fact sheet about “alcopops,” flavored beverages that have 5-7% alcohol, a little bit more alcohol than beer but much less than wine, let alone vodka. Does not say that marketing is the entire cause of the rise in binge drinking.

In other words, the initial claim is crap and the Google links that supposedly back it up don’t back it up.

5262

What parents are giving their sorority daughters mixed drinks before frat parties?

Funny that, for all we know so far, you are the parent of a hs kid. Most of us here have kids in or through college. Once your son leaves home, unless you accompany him, you will lose a large portion of control. I understand you have already told him about these wicked women and to stay away from them.

Some of your comments, hsdad, echo a former poster’s certainty.

How did this thread get so hijacked by one poster’s campaign? So much in such little time.

5263

@dstark Post #5249. Yes, I should have written “increases the chance of the of accused self-incriminating” (though I do think the accused can be a victim of a different sort). It appears to me that most of the OCR investigations are responses to complaints from victims of sexual assault (or alleged victims or accusers or their advocates) or they are general compliance investigations initiated by the OCR itself.

The DE OCR is a public agency. Its investigations should be more transparent at the time that they are initiated, not years later when they are resolved. We don’t know who is filing claims and we don’t know what the criteria are for the OCR’s decision to pursue investigations. We don’t know why certain colleges are being subjected to OCR instigated compliance reviews.

What we do know is that there currently 94 colleges under investigation by the OCR, and that these investigations can take several years to complete. By taking on the responsibility to regulate how colleges handle sexual assault, the DE OCR is gearing up to becoming an enormous bureaucracy that will involve an enormous investment in public funds. I don’t think there’s been enough public or congressional debate on the scope of the DE OCR’s authority.

@momofthreeboys may be correct that most students who believe they have been wrongfully accused have chosen to take their complaints to civil court instead of to the OCR. That may change as “wrongfully accused” advocacy groups understand that they have grounds to petition the OCR for civil rights violations as well.

It’s not clear if the OCR can put pressure on a college to reverse an decision that the accuser and the OCR feel should have been decided or penalized differently.

For example, as part of its OCR resolution, Princeton agreed “to reexamine all cases of sexual assault filed within the past three academic years and address any problems it may find” and will have “to reimburse some tuition for three reported sexual assault victims.”

It’s important to note that Princeton was under investigation for four years and the cases dated from 2009 to 2011.

http://dailyprincetonian.com/news/2014/11/breaking-princeton-found-in-violation-of-title-ix-enters-into-agreement-with-office-of-civil-rights/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/05/princeton-title-ix-sexual-assault_n_6107756.html
http://www2.ed.gov/documents/press-releases/princeton-agreement.pdf

I accept that after receiving reports of sexual assault, colleges need to separate the accused and the accuser and that the means of separation needs to fit the degree of danger (or "hostile environment’) for the accuser and the campus at large. After that is accomplished, I believe the college and the accuser should get the police involved to investigate and try the accused. The colleges just don’t have the skills or facilities to bring sexual assaulters to justice.

Thus, if we want perpetrators of sexual assault to be tried and convicted – not just expelled – then we have no choice but to rely on the police and courts. No one on this site has denied that women reporting sexual assault to police have been treated badly or that in some cases this inappropriate treatment continues. No one has ever claimed that our criminal justice system is perfect. No argument there.

The way our legal system handles sexual assault cases, while improved over the past decade by public awareness, could and must continue to improve. While we’re pouring millions of dollars into the DE OCR title ix investigations, it seems we could devote some funds to improve police response as well.

5264

That could be true. Or-- which would be a better result-- at the end of this high-profile series of OCR investigations colleges will have a better handle on how these investigations are expected to be handled, and they won’t need so much oversight.

How big is the OCR bureaucracy that is handling the 95 investigations right now? I doubt that it’s very big at all. I imagine, in fact, that it’s quite small, less than 50 person-equivalents working on the college assault issue, but I could be wrong.

Momrath, for sure we want the legal system to improve, and we want cases to go to the legal system if the legal system is in a position to convict the offenders.

But let’s say that we improve the police response to rape accusations, which we should, and we encourage accusers to go to the police, which we should. Is that going to let the colleges off the hook? I don’t think so. What do we do with cases like the Stanford swimmer? Let’s say he gets away with misdemeanor sexual battery, not unlikely, and let’s pretend his victim was a Stanford student. Should Stanford let him back on campus because he was not convicted of a felony? Or should they say, there wasn’t evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that he was going to rape that young woman, but there was certainly clear and convincing evidence that he was up to no good? So out he goes?

It’s an error to compare the magnitude of cost of the OCR investigations with the cost of improving police response. Improving the police response is going to cost orders of magnitude more. It’s supposed to cost [$10 million](Fund-raising campaign aims at solving Detroit rape cases) just to handle the backlog of unexamined rape kits just in Detroit. That’s just one city, and that doesn’t include any police training or any money for handling rape accusations better going forward in Detroit. Millions of dollars will not be enough. Hundreds of millions will be required.

5265

The WaPo article that I posted earlier indicates that the OCR is currently considerably understaffed.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/tally-of-federal-probes-of-colleges-on-sexual-violence-grows-50-percent-since-may/2014/10/19/b253f02e-54aa-11e4-809b-8cc0a295c773_story.html

I agree that once the required processes are in place, the general oversight will become less arduous; however, for the short term I think we’ll see the number of complaints and investigations continue to rise dramatically. As it is now the OCR is still investigating cases that occurred 4-5 years ago and taking 2-3 years to come to a resolution. So in order to be effectual in a timely manner they will have to get substantial funding to enlarge their staff.

It’s for this reason that I’d like to see the OCR’s processes and decisions become more transparent so that the funding – and authority – can be debated in Congress.

I agree that funding the OCR and funding the police aren’t either/or propositions. Funding reform for all PDs for all sexual assault cases would require hundreds of millions of dollars, but since we’re focused on campus assaults, I’d like to see funding and training for precincts that serve college campuses. Start small with some task forces and trial programs and see where it goes.

I’m not advocating letting the colleges off the hook for their responsibility to provide a safe environment, but I believe that colleges could implement interim solutions while the police investigate and the case works its way through the courts.

The decision to expel or reinstate could come after the verdict is received. I also wouldn’t completely rule out the possibility of expulsion without an indictment or guilty verdict: the cases are so variable that one size penalty just can fit all. If the objective is to get the assaulter off campus, then a suspension serves as well as an expulsion.

Again, I think the college’s penalty should be graded just as there are different degrees of crime categories.

As for the Stanford swimmer, I think there’s enough evidence (with witnesses) for him to be indicted for sexual assault (or whatever the category would be in California). I think that would be a good enough reason for Stanford to expel him even if this case doesn’t fall under Title IX auspices.

5266

OK. I give up. You all wore me out and I am done. I no longer have the energy to fight against the endless stupid comments and the inability of some people to understand simple concepts. There are a number of issues that we have discussed where both sides of any one particular argument have legitimate concerns, but in too many cases a small minority thinks there side is the only side with a valid point. I can no longer subject myself to such stupidity.

I want to say thank you to people like CF, ALH, DS, HM, LF, (and several others) for fighting the good fight and having these discussions and backing them up with statistics and research, and logic etc. There are a number of other posters who contribute in a meaningful way (some of whom I agree with at times, and some that I don’t).

There are a few of you who sincerely make me worry for the future of our society. I just hope you are the minority and never get into a position of authority where you get to make decisions.

5267

I am a little tired too
TV4caster, thanks for your posts.

Remember, no matter what anybody posts, progress is being made and will continue to be made. :wink:

5268

“I worked for a bit in alcohol research, just after grad school- at the time, there was no appreciable statistical benefit to the lower drinking age.”

But did your research look into the scenario of 18-21 just beer/wine legal? Probably not, since I doubt there’s much/any data on that.

HSD – could you share how old your kids are? Your prohibitionist stance is one that very few parents take (unless they are Mormons) once their kids have been through the teen and college years.

Sure, Harvard could impose a 100% ban on booze (or just about anything else) and kids would still beat down the doors to get in. The other 99.9% of colleges – good luck with that.

Also, your son should be prepared to be lonely in college. Since stats say 80% drink and 40% binge drink on occasion. He’s going to be avoiding lots of girls like the plague.

5269

NW, short answer: in terms of what we ask on this thread, would lowering the drinking age for wine/beer result in better choices, fewer troubles? No, not what we specifically looked at, at that time. (My bet is that there are plenty of these studies, today- even if we can’t easily find them.) But for all the studies done where I was, we saw the young are not immune to a host of short-term and long-term very real health risks. Aside from accidents and assaults,etc, the more one drinks, the more stats we found, at that time, about eventual death from dread diseases. Spirits, wine and beer.

One needs to have a responsible attitude toward drinking. I’m sure we all agree that’s more than banning alcohol or just lowering the age…

5270

In my lifetime there has been much greater awareness of the dangers of drunk driving and the problem has gotten better. We can hope what with similar cultural awareness and pressure, the problem of binge drinking also improves.

I wonder about the cause. Sure some of it has to do with being away from home, with external controls being gone, etc. But what about the internal desire to do such a thing? How can we satisfy a young person’s need for a wild bacchanal without it being so dangerous? Is that even possible? Do we really need to have wild bacchanals?

I wonder if this is somehow related to the delayed, lengthened adolescence that is now common. Could it be a matter of giving more responsibility to younger people, of expecting more of them (and not just test results- please!). Of encouraging them to be in challenging circumstances that aren’t a wild free for all.

P.S. I think this is a side issue concerning campus rape and not the cause. It only facilitates the opportunity for it to happen but the main problem is with people (mostly men) who think it’s quite alright to do such a thing.

5271

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/fashion/sex-on-campus-she-can-play-that-game-too.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

There’s a hugely long thread about hook-up culture so no need to repeat, but to think that some of the sexual assault “issue” isn’t tightly connected to alcohol and not-technically-rape-sex I think is a huge mistake.

5272

5295, mom2and [quote] Alh: while that makes sense in theory, not so much in practice. A drunk kid is less likely than a sober one to obtain proper consent. A drunk girl is more likely to go along with a situation she is not comfortable with or to give consent, when she really was not sober enough to do so. A drunk boy is less likely to be able to discern if the girl is really consenting or not. Not excusing behavior due to drinking, but certainly much more likely that these things will happen if the participants are drinking. I don't think that this type of assault can be reduced without some reduction in drinking by both genders.

[/quote]

In some ways, I very much agree with what you are writing. I agree with educating young women about the risks they face at college and giving them appropriate tools to deal with those risks. My parents did their best to teach me to drink responsibly before I went to college parties. They wanted me to have my first experience of being drunk, at home, in a safe environment. They wanted me to understand how very quickly alcohol impacts someone weighing 102 pounds (They were not pre-gaming with me in the hours prior to a fraternity party if that is how my post read) They also taught me no one had to right to touch me without my consent. I was given permission to hit. Beyond that, my very intimidating father met my dates. That gets into other discussions of patriarchy and the advantage to women of having powerful males in their lives.

These tools protect some women from rape but not others. The responsibility for preventing rape is made an individual female responsibility. We just need to be careful and strong. Problem solved. Of course, if that solved the rape problem - we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Because, in the end, it doesn’t solve the problem. Changing the behavior of “some” males is what solves the problem. I have been very careful on this thread not to frame this as: All men are bad. All men are rapists.

I tried to replicate my parents’ approach to responsible drinking education with my own sons. In their early teens, we began to offer them wine at family holiday dinners. One of my sons has always been a scientist. Based on his reading on adolescent alcohol and recreational drug use, he was absolutely horrified. I was trying to kill his brain cells, and he needed ALL of them. The summer before they began college I suggested the “get drunk in the family room” experience and was told not to be ridiculous. My sons told me they did not intend to drink in college. A cousin had been found with alcohol in his dorm room the previous year and having that on his college record had taken him out of the running for some positions and honors which he had anticipated winning. My sons are all very ambitious, long term goal setters, and this was a real cautionary tale to them.

So I don’t think they drank in college, but that may be naive on my part. One asked my opinion about whether it was okay for him to drink the wine, traditionally served every night at college dinners, during an abroad program, in a country where he was legal drinking age. Another called to discuss what to do about his female friends. A friends group of about a dozen would go out to dance bars regularly. He loves to dance. He was underage and not drinking. Some of his female friends were drinking to what he considered to be excess and he was finding it more and more of a challenge to see them safely home. He wanted advice on how to handle the situation.

Obviously my sons grew into fine young men despite my parenting techniques. Parenting results and outcomes are more luck than anything else, imho. At some point we will need to let go and allow them to make their own decisions and own their own mistakes. That age isn’t one size fits all. Some need more guidance than others. imho.

I think rape is about cultural attitudes towards women. It is about dehumanization. It is about not respecting a woman’s privacy rights to her own body. When we can change that mindset, we begin to make headway on the problem of rape. imho. ymmv.

Stopping drinking won’t stop rape. Expulsions won’t stop rape. Criminal convictions won’t stop rape. Changing how we think about women may stop rape.

I am a broken record. I am going to join TV4caster for refreshments off stage. Since it is before lunch, I’m having a Bloody Mary.

5273

Thanks for the thoughtful posts #5302 and #5309, @momrath. I have a few comments, though I generally agree with what you are saying.

I don’t think that lack of due process for the accused in a sexual assault hearing counts as a civil rights violation under the purview of OCR. Accused students are entitled to due process, but the remedy for violations, I think, does not lie with OCR.

I’m worried about the idea of outsourcing expulsion decisions to prosecutors and grand juries. I don’t see that being charged with a crime, if the person has not yet been convicted of the crime, should be in itself grounds for expulsion from college, as you suggest with the Stanford swimmer case. He has been charged with a crime, five crimes in fact, but he has not yet been convicted of anything. When prosecutors and grand juries make decisions about who to indict/charge, they are supposed to look at only the evidence for the prosecution: if everything the prosecution says is true, would this person be guilty of a crime?

The college needs to look at the evidence themselves. In the case of the Stanford swimmer, the undisputed evidence is in my view enough to merit expulsion. But I don’t want colleges to expel just because someone was indicted. The person might be innocent.

ETA: Two of the Duke lacrosse players were indicted. Should Duke have expelled them?

5274

The best thing men can do to lower the incidence of campus rape is not have sex with women who do not enthusiastically consent. Don’t “take advantage”, don’t manipulate, don’t drug women. I’m all for people not getting drunk, but rape is not primarily a crime of opportunity.

5275

I think there is a lot of binary thinking on the issues we are discussing here. Examples: if you discuss risk reduction by women, you are victim-blaming and don’t care about what men are being taught. Or it’s all about drinking. Or it has nothing to do with drinking. Or 99% of rapes are gray area cases. Or most of them are serial predators. Etc. This is not the way to think about these issues–the solution will not be so easy. It won’t be solved just by making colleges use the preponderance of the evidence standard, or by making reporting to the police mandatory, or by banning all alcohol, by banning hard liquor, or any other single thing. It will require multiple strategies–maybe including some of the above, although maybe not all of them.

By the way, if you really believe that college should ban all alcohol and expel anybody who drinks at all, you could send your kid to one of the few colleges that has a really strict ban on drinking, even for persons over 21. The policy does work, at least to some extent (although it may be that such schools just enroll students who wouldn’t drink much anywhere). Here’s an interesting study about this: http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1193&context=honors

Just as an anecdote, though, the person charged with the U.Va. murder was apparently expelled from Liberty University for sexual assault.

5276

If it is unclear the girl can give consent, be a gentleman, get her home safely and let her sleep it off.

5277

That is certainly the safest advice to young men, but I also agree with those who note that at a certain point it infantilizes young women. There is a lot of space between drunk sex and rape and after the fact trying to define it based on fuzzy memories is an impossibility.

Jesse Mathew was expelled from two schools early on in his apparently decade long sex crime spree.

5278

Infantilizes young women? Don’t agree with that. If a woman can say no, so can a man. Works both ways. And its smart too.

5279

I’m reading [the Dartmouth report to the President]( http://forward.dartmouth.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/FINAL-REPORT-Web.pdf). Interesting reading. Dartmouth has a serious alcohol problem, according to the report. They are not admitting heavy drinkers: admitted students aren’t bigger drinkers than admitted students at other schools. Rather, Dartmouth is making heavy drinkers. Half the students at Dartmouth binged in the last two weeks. Students binge on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays.

The residential college program they’re going to set up is also motivated by students of color and students from moderate or low income families feeling they are not included on campus. Dartmouth is primarily populated by rich kids: almost 60% of Dartmouth students are from families with family incomes above $200K. (Kinda like the income distribution here at CC.) The minority of students from moderate and low income families feel left out.

I like this part of Dartmouth’s [plan](Home | President):

People here have wondered about consent in various scenarios. Dartmouth is right to be specific about what is allowed, what is prohibited, and what the sanctions will be for prohibited behavior. Dartmouth is also well within their rights to disallow certain activities that are legal. Even if it’s legal in New Hampshire to have sex with apparently consenting people who are very drunk (I don’t know the law there), Dartmouth can say that sex with very drunk people is a violation of their policy and punishable.

5280

This poster has been banned. All FIFTY of his posts were in this one thread. We do not allow people to sign up on CC for the purpose of campaigning for a cause.