Also to add, that while my daughter thought Haverford’s campus was lovely, she found it too spread out for a small number of students. She felt the vibe was quiet and a little too committed and zealous for her. IOW, she didn’t feel she could be quite as honest as Haverfordians clearly are, which is a reflection on her, lol.
She loved Carleton’s campus, which felt comfortable and relaxed. The town is nice, and Minneapolis isn’t far. It’s possibly the best bet for traveling to and from the PNW, depending on where you are.
Carleton might be your best fit, although each prospective student will need to decide what choice is best for them. As both an alum of Carleton and a parent of a graduating senior there, my familiarity with that campus likely sways my opinion.
We visited both Amherst and Haverford, with me being more familiar with Haverford.
Left Amherst not feeling good about it – students did not seem happy, less engaged and the physical plant left us unimpressed (albeit fall 2014). Couldn’t define its mindset. Never looked back.
Haverford did give us a better, democratic (small “d”) feel, and our daughter likely would have been happy there. Had concerns about its smaller size. Fewer class choices and concerns about frequency of offerings if during one semester she couldn’t take a needed class, as well as limited lab equipment. Size seems to be an ongoing dilemma for Haverford … … wanting to remain intimate but feeling financial pressures to grow in size without changing its historical character. I liken this to a small, successful restaurant that debates whether to double its capacity and, when it does, it only to destroys what made everyone like it in the first place. Don’t know how/whether Haverford will actively resolve this or if it simply lets circumstances dictate by default. It will need strong leadership to crack this nut.
Carleton is egalitarian and collaborative by nature, by geography and by historical intention, so more similar to Haverford in attitude. Students work hard but not in order to compete against each other. I particularly love downtown Northfield, located just a few blocks off campus. Easy access to both Minneapolis and St. Paul— about 40 minutes away.
The Carleton trimesters are not overly intense, with just three classes each term. Faculty are there to teach, but our daughter has had good opportunities to participate with faculty research. The college’s arboretum offers a good escape and a natural laboratory in itself. Head to Dacie’s House when in need of a cookie break.
Celebrate your available choices, and go more with your gut than with just your head.
Carleton Trimesters means three sets of final exams instead of two each year, but it also means 36 courses in 4 years instead of 32, which for someone with lots of varied interests is a bonus
I am sure all 3 schools will happily set them up with a current student and this will allow a bit of a gut check for your child. Are there current college students from your child’s high school that would be willing to speak with them too? The guidance counselor should be able to assist here. (or the area rep at each college) to at least find another PNW student. It is hard to decide without a visit and you have laid out your child’s likes and dislikes so well, making it seem like a chat with current students would be productive and help clarify the 3 wonderful options.
Agree with Bill Marsh…not sure why the negative comments about Amherst. Usually, there are many positive comments about Amherst on College Confidential. Believe me, I have read all of the comments about Amherst on this site for at least five years now as my son is a junior there. Beautiful new award winning science center and very nice looking campus. Amherst has buildings dating back to 1821 so newer buildings are going to look different by design. My son loved hanging out in the freshmen quad! The student body is inclusive and welcoming to everyone. Lots of opportunity for club sports and other activities. There are many reasons Williams and Amherst are often ranked #1 and #2 for liberal arts colleges. Happy to answer more specific questions!
At least the reason I suggested Haverford, then Carleton, and then not really Amherst at all, for a non-binary student, is that, while Amherst has done a phenomenal job on racial/ethnic diversity, it also has the reputation as a more “mainstream” (for want of a better word) community in terms of culture/values, a reputation borne out by our knowledge of current students and recent grads. While a non-binary student could certainly find their people at Amherst, that is likely to be easier, with more of their “peeps” to find, at Haverford and Carleton. Certainly Amherst is ranked as one of the two top LACs, year in and year out, and it is an exceptional school. But Haverford and Carleton are superb schools as well, and Haverford – with its tradition of tolerance and respect, along with close connections with Bryn Mawr – and Carleton, with a high “quirky” factor, are likely to be better fits for the OP’s student.
Not sure I agree with this. Haverford is as physically close to BMC as Amherst is to UMass. And, Haverford is as proximate to Penn or Swat as Amherst is to Smith or MHC. However, the schools, Amherst and Haverford, are very different in terms of vibe and campus culture. From my perspective, the interest in a collaborative community leans to Haverford.
My D at Amherst had such a friend as well. That friend made the transition as a student, in fact.
Ultimate Frisbee is a club sport there, they travel to compete and are fairly serious, but anyone can join. There’s a mens and womens team, not sure how that works with people who consider themselves neither or both but I bet there’s a way.
Amherst and Hampshire Colleges, both in the 5 college consortium and both in the town of Amherst have a combined enrollment of 3000 students. They would be comparable in enrollment to the combined 2700 of Haverford & Bryn Mawr. But looking beyond just the numbers, Bryn Mawr is an all women’s college, which is fine, but it limits the diversity that you’re adding.
Although Bryn Mawr is as close to Amherst as UMass, the comparison ends there. UMass has 23,000 undergrads + thousands more grad students. That’s expands the potential social circle enormously.
In contrast to the sleepy suburbs on the Main Line, Amherst is the quintessential college town. Students everywhere. In the restaurants. In the coffee shops. In the book stores. In the funky clothing stores. If an Amherst student takes a course at UMass, as many do, and makes a friend in that class, the two of them are likely to run into each other again because the gathering places in town are the same for the 3 colleges in that town. You talk about the culture of the colleges but there’s also the culture of the communities they’re in as well. The town of Amherst culture is defined by its colleges. Not so at Haverford and Bryn Mawr.
Smith is the same distance away as Swarthmore is from Haverford, but the important thing here is Northampton, a very LGBTQ friendly, funky town with a bustling arts scene. It’s a haven for kids from all 5 colleges as well as artsy types who settle in the Pioneer Valley and nearby Berkshires. Northampton & Amherst are like one big college metro area, defined by the college kids.
You’re comparing linear distances as if the campuses are all that matter, ignoring the context and all the College gathering spots. UPenn and Mount Holyoke are the same distancesfrom Amherst and Haverford, but one is at the end of a 45 mph country road and the other is through metro traffic. The distances don’t mean the same thing.
My response was aimed at your contention that at Haverford the student is “on an island.” With that, I disagree. But, I’m happy to continue the conversation.
OP’s student is a biological female, non-binary and attracted to females. OP didn’t express a need for diversity. BMC will offer many social opportunities if they find Haverford lacking. Beyond BMC, Swarthmore has its fair share of unique individuals and is part of the Haveford/Swat/BMC consortium.
Again, OP did not express an interest in a large state school for her student . In fact, they come from a magnet school with less than 60 graduates. Didn’t see a compelling interest in being among 23,000 students.
The Main Line has its fair share of coffee shops and universities. Villanova is nearer to Haverford than some of consortium schools are to Amherst. I’ve been on Amherst campus a half dozen times and spoken to many students; very few took a class at another school. Those students stay on campus generally except to eat or grab a cup of coffee with their classmates.
Philadelphia is not Northampton, but it has more than its fair share of a bustling arts scene. And, Philadelphia also is very LGBTQ friendly, as is Swarthmore, BMC and Haverford. Students at Haverford regularly travel to Philadelphia on weekends for art, culture and food.
I’m not sure the importance of this distinction. All colleges have their gathering spots, each of which is necessarily unique. The trek to Swarthmore indeed takes you on country roads. And, I didn’t say linear distance regarding Penn and MHC; I said proximate. I am confident that the Haverford consortium and Philadelphia provide a sufficiently wide range of options to interest OP’s student.
Look, Amherst is a fine school. The OP expressed a sincere interest in a collaborative rather than a competitive environment. On that score, I believe Haverford provides the best opportunity.
Philly is actually offers MUCH more than Northampton both in terms of art scene and LGBTQ populace. Yes, both are very friendly to that community. Both are great places but Philly is a major city with the dining, arts, music scenes to rival any big city.
I hate to think of a vulnerable 18-year-old getting lost in any big city populace.
Northampton/Amherst is one big college town filled with young people whom they can get to know as classmates or friends of classmates while taking courses at each others’ colleges. That was my point.
Wow! We are grateful to have received so many thoughtful comments. Several people raised issues we hadn’t considered, which led us to research additional aspects of the colleges.
In the end, I think kiddo ended up taking @MinnesotaDadOf3 's advice and going more with the gut than the head. They’ve chosen Haverford, in large part because of the sense of community that Haverford projects. After participating in online student panel discussions for Haverford and Carleton, kiddo felt that Haverford is more intentional about promoting community, and they felt a connection to the Quaker values of equality, respect, and service. Also important is the close proximity of Bryn Mawr. Kiddo didn’t want to attend a women’s college, but having one nearby feels comforting. Plus, as a couple of people pointed out, Haverford offers a lot of single rooms, which might be the best choice for a non-binary kid. As for ultimate frisbee, a sophomore HC student who contacted my kiddo via email plays on a combined BMC/HC rec-level team and has really enjoyed it.
Carleton was a very close second. It has pretty much everything Haverford has, plus a place to bake cookies 24 hours a day, all a non-stop flight away. I think it would have been an excellent choice but it was edged out for the reasons above.
Amherst came in third here. It has many advantages, including the new science center, a stellar reputation, and opportunities at the other colleges in the consortium, not to mention an enormous endowment which will help cushion what is likely to be a few difficult years for many colleges. (Plus they’re the Mammoths! Possibly even cooler than the Haverford Black Squirrels.) But kiddo was understandably turned off by the recent news about the men’s lacrosse team. It’s not representative of the student body as a whole, of course, and Amherst took serious action, but it colored our view of the school and made it easier to turn down the offer. I’m sure it too would have been a great place for kiddo to get an education, but Haverford feels like a safer bet.
Regarding relevant academics, Haverford appears in a Princeton Review sampling, “Great Schools for Mathematics Majors,” which may provide you with additional confidence in this aspect of your child’s choice.
Wishing you congratulations on the final decision!
@PacificNWParent Congratulations from a proud Haverford alum! I am thrilled that your child will be joining our community. I hope they have as much of a life-changing experience as I did. Thirty-plus years later, I still very connected to Haverford and BMC.
I highly recommend following Haverford’s president, Wendy Raymond, on Instagram (@prezraymond). She just started in July 2019, but is already a beloved figure on campus.
Congrats on your choice. Few things were brought up here, though;
I believe that Ultimate Frisbee was invented in Amherst
According to my SIL and BIL(one time UMASS profs), who have lived and taught in many, many, places, Amherst is, in their opinion, the most PC town in America.
Carleton is in a smallish rural town(20,000 isn't tiny, IMO), but is not what I would call isolated, at least compared to schools like Williams, Middlebury, Grinnell, and the like. It shares the town with a large'ish LAC, St. Olaf College(approx 3,000 students).