We learn more about Lord Peter’s PTSD (then called shellshock) in some of the other books in the series. Also, in The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club another character’s PTSD is important in the plot. It must have been so common that it was a normal facet of life for people in all social classes.
Nowadays, people like us, in the Parent Cafe, concerned about our kids’ college education, mostly don’t see our kids go to war, even though the US has been at war for the entirety of the lifetime of the high school class of 2020. But back then, of course the Dowager Duchess’ son went to war.
I enjoyed reading both the books. It had been quite a while since I’ve read either book even as I have more recently read other books but them. As said above by others, there are so many cringe worthy moments in the books, especially considering that in the version of * And Then There Were None* I read, the poem used more offensive words than soldiers. But, I try to give the authors of that period a pass for the times they lived in.
I am a fan of Agatha Christie, though ATTWN isn’t a book I rate highly although it may have been the very first book of hers that I read and did hook me into reading more of her books. She keeps the plot tight and interesting.
I tried to think back to one of the earliest times I read the book. One of the two things I remembered are encountering ‘sine qua non’ for the first time and having a long discussion with my parents on what it meant. The other was that though I disliked each and every character (testament to AC) Vera and Lombard topped my list. I thought their crimes were the worst so their manner of death seemed fitting.
My opinion about Vera is that had she succeeded in her objective of marrying Hugo, she would’ve lived her life blithely without looking back. The only reason she couldn’t forget was because she failed in her purpose. The disregard that Lombard shows for human lives and the casual way he speaks of what he did makes him a likely murderer but also rules him out because of the justice seeking aspect of the murders.
Miss Brent was equally high on the dislike list even though I wouldn’t call her a murderer. Moralistic without a true moral compass.
Of the others, I feel that only the General and the Dr. Armstrong admitted their guilt as well felt remorse. Blore felt guilt without remorse.
I read * Whose Body?* online and didn’t get the same enjoyment as with the physical book. I had to go back to check on several references as I read and the online format I had access to isn’t well designed for that. But still, it was worth the effort — Sayers starts slowly but by mid-book you’re deep in and just can’t stop reading. Also, her character development is superb. Lord Peter, his mother, Bunter, Parker all come across as so human complete with foibles and all.
I may as well admit that I had a crush on Lord Peter despite his receding forehead and long, narrow chin.
I like the subtle humor that Sayers infused into her writing but one needs a lot more focus to pick up the nuances. Also, I had to reach for the dictionary a few times — that brought back some good memories! Vade mecum!
I feel like Sayers isn’t as concerned with keeping the suspense up for the reader as she is with making the journey to the end interesting. Freke stood out early as a suspect although I’ll say that initially Milligan seemed plausible too.
I’m going to split my post into two as I think my tendency for verbosity has gotten the better of me today.
Wow, just realized that I’ve been ‘writing‘ my post since this morning and have missed many posts! A lot to catch up.
AC is an efficient writer, masterly at plot and keeping the suspense, but her character development is superficial. Much as I enjoy her mysteries, some of her characters feel like caricatures.
DLS is a more of a cerebral writer, likes to incorporate details and development of characters. She successfully builds on her characters as the later books will show.
What struck me as common about both the books:
The overweening vanity of the murderers, evidenced by the premeditation and the obsession.
The actual murders were a bit farfetched. For the judge to successfully fake his death, even with the connivance of the doctor, was hard to believe. Also, for the murderer to be able incorporate the details of the poem to fit (like the bee that buzzes as Miss Brent is killed) isn’t believable.
The idea of carrying a body over rooftops and then lowering a body through a window with surgical bandages silently so as not to rouse anyone did make me laugh.
To sum it up, I still like both authors and books. This was a perfect pairing of books for me and I’m looking forward to a great discussion.
I need to build up my Sayers collection from scratch again because reading her books online doesn’t work for me.
I’d never read Dorothy Sayers so this was a fun introduction. At first I didn’t care for the book - the style of conversation in particular, and Lord Peter himself. I paused partway through until I realized (1) it was almost June and (2) the ebook would get returned shortly. So I finished the book and appreciated it much more. I don’t know if it was me, or if the second half was actually better. I’m still not enamored of Lord Peter but I understand him quite a bit more. The character certainly served as a model for other fictional characters in books, movies, and television. Loved Parker and the Dowager Duchess.
I’ve had all the Agatha Christie books for probably decades but hadn’t read any in years. This was a superbly crafted book but not one of my favorites. I prefer the Miss Marples and the Tommy and Tuppence books. I read up on all the versions of the Ten Little books, and how much the movies differed in critical ways. Very interesting.
It’s easy to see why these books were paired up, in terms of the murderers and confessions and such. But in both cases, as others have noted, you have to take a big leap of faith to accept the convoluted processes. There was also the casual racism, sexism, and anti-Semitism, all of which was jarring.
One part I found fascinating was when Whimsey questioned his motives for doing investigations. He was saying that he did it for fun, lost interest when he got bored, and didn’t seem to care much about justice. This worried him. That was a clear contradiction to Christie’s Miss Marple and Hercule Poirot, who both had a crystal clear moral compass and completely disapproved of murder. (Well, except maybe for one train trip.). I wonder how much that was a product of class.
Although I enjoyed reading both, I disliked the ATTWN treatment of the “dead” body more. It really kind of ruined it for me to have a such a far fetched idea that no one would notice the body they were carrying all the way upstairs was not dead. Since it was so plot driven I just thought it was a disappointing contrivance. Although the dead body carried over the roofs was actually just as absurd it did not affect my enjoyment of the book as much since I was enjoying the characters.
I too was glad for this diversion. I had not read any Sayers before and intend to continue.
I am not a reader of Whodunit mystery books, so I enjoyed reading both books as a new adventure. I can’t say I preferred one book over the other. They were both easy reads and kept my interest. I liked both, but don’t see myself reading another book by either author.
I listened to Mary13’s linked audio of And Then There Were None and also read a Kindle version. There were a few changes in the book. I assume the changes were an attempt to modernize and be less offensive. I’m not really sure when all the changes were made. My digital copy was from 2011. On the audio, the poem was The Ten Little Indians and the island was Indian Island. In the book it was 10 Little Soldiers and Soldier Island. The audio version had a written summary underneath the audio links that referred to the original November 1939 UK version as Ten Little N…(insert an offensive N word), after a British blackface song. The US edition was released in December 1939 as Ten Little Indians. I also noticed a few other minor changes of words in the Kindle version.
I just went back over this whole thread, which I didn’t read before writing my comment, and saw the other titles had been brought up by a couple people. The old titles are a sad reflection of history.
Other books in the series make it more clear that this is not Wimsey’s motivation.
He does the investigations for fun, to be sure. But he doesn’t lose interest when he gets bored. That’s not it at all. Rather, when it comes to the point where he figures out who did it, and he realizes he will be responsible for sending a murderer to his death, he suffers relapses of his post traumatic stress disorder. He gets flashbacks to the time when, as an officer in WWI, he was responsible for sending so many soldiers to their deaths.
It’s not a matter of boredom. It’s a matter of him having trouble facing the responsibility of sending someone to their death. He doesn’t give up when it stops being fun; he just stops liking it.
And afterwards has nightmares and sometimes a breakdown. He’s extremely conflicted about what he presents to the world as merely an amusing hobby undertaken by an aristocratic dilettante.
Now I remember this book, and like mathmom can’t keep the characters straight. And can’t make myself care about them. If I were a puzzle lover, I’m sure if enjoy Christie a lot more. As it is, I mainly enjoy Christie through David Suchet’s Poirot.
For those reading mysteries for the plots, this seems an excellent example. Probably I’m out of the norm in never reading them for the puzzles.
He’s not wanting to get out of it because he’s bored, but because “somebody is going to be hurt” as a result of what he did.
At the end of Chapter 8, he figures out it’s Freke, he knows he will be responsible for sending Freke to the gallows, and he has the flashback to being in the trenches.
I enjoyed both books but found both had the plot bits that were difficult to accept—carrying dead body on rooftop and lowering it thru bathroom window silently, carrying a body upstairs and not realizing the person was alive.
I am not normally a mystery reader—get frustrated I can’t figure out who did it and how. I also like physical books but read both online, which was ok since both books were quick reads.
The books paired well. Not sure whether I will seek out more by either author. Lord Peter’s mom reminds me of Henry Higgin’s mom, unperterbable. The butler was also a good chap and wingman for Lord Wimsey. I wasn’t familiar with Lord Wimsey—May read others featuring him.
All in all, great selections again, Mary. I was glad they were available at no charge for the e-books.
Since this is not the COVID thread, it would be nice to tone down the “corrections” and stick to discussion. Please don’t let the aggression spill over here.
I read both books twice just to see what I missed the first time. It was better to read them when I already knew who the bad guy was. I was able to pick up on clues that I missed the first time.
For example: The Judge’s invitation was the only one not to have come from Ms. or Mr. Owen.
What was unrealistic for me in Whose Body? was the absolute certainty that – had this been real – the body in the bathtub would not have been circumcised, while Mr. Levy certainly would have been. And someone like Lord Peter would understand that immediately.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed the Sayers book immensely and found the Christie book too much puzzle to be pleasurable.
Sayers fans, which other Lord Peter books would you recommend?
I’d say go next to Murder Must Advertise, to read Sayers’ witty thoughts about advertising. It takes place at an advertising agency.
I love, love, love Gaudy Night but recommend you read Strong Poison and Have His Carcase first.
The only Lord Peter book I can’t warm up to is Five Red Herrings. The whole mystery centers on a train schedule, and is more clever than enjoyable for me.
@VeryHappy I always assumed the body in the bathtub was was not circumcised and that’s how Lord Peter knew it could not be Sir Reuben. I have the 1923 version of the text and in Chapter 2 Parker says “Sir Reuben is a pious Jew of pious parents, and the chap in the bath obviously isn’t …” explaining why he isn’t going to tell Mrs. Reuben that they might have found her husband’s body.
Apparently this got changed in later editions to “But as a matter of fact, the man in the bath is no more Sir Reuben Levy than Adolf Beck, poor devil, was John Smith”.[5] That’s a lot less obvious.
I am a huge AC fan. I like the Poirot and Marple series. I also like the Tuppence and Tommy books. I think Christie offers more of a puzzle for the mystery buffs and Sayers has the memorable characters.
I read a lot of novels featuring British detectives, and Lord Peter is one of my favorite detectives along with Albert Campion, Dr. Gideon Fell, Miss Pym and Miss Silver. I find Poirot overblown but the stories featuring him are very enjoyable. I do like Miss Marple better even with her knitting and winding/unwinding endless balls of pink and blue yarn, versus Poirot’s mustache grooming and crème de menthe or syrop de cassis fixation.
For those who are new to Agatha Christie and not huge mystery fans, I would recommend the short stories collection including the ones featuring Parker Pyne or Satterthwaite and Quin. Not so much as puzzles type stories as interesting (and short) ones. Christie also wrote a few (I believe 6) romance novels under the name Mary Westmacott, all of which I read at least once. IMO, not her strong suit — the only one that I even vaguely remember is Absent in the Spring.
My favorite Sayers books are Strong Poison, Gaudy Night, and Clouds of Witness. I also liked Busman’s Honeymoon, The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club and Have His Carcase but I’m drawing a blank on some of the other books. I have to get the books from the library once it reopens and refresh my memory.
