Angry over the college admissions process

Parents Forum
2001

<p>Actually, QM’s response to the “is there something wrong with me?” is quite touching and it reveals a lot about herself - that she has a soft heart when it comes to the feelings of promising young scientists, and that her natural inclination is to want to comfort / protect / nurture / encourage these students. I think those are great qualities to have, even though they are “soft” and not as measurable as mathematic or scientific prowess. </p>

<p>I may disagree with what the response should be and / or what steps need to be taken to solve this problem (and QM, thank you for clarifying that you saw the drop-out phenomenon as the unintended consequence, not a reason in and of itself to change MIT’s policy), but it’s precisely this kind of “soft”, humane quality in a person that is what MIT is trying to identify for beyond the straight can-you-do-the-work.</p>

2002

<p>It’s so funny. When I look at the photo for the Solvay Conference it is pretty quickly apparent that one of those things is not like the others. Read the story of Marie Curie. I think she worked as a nanny to support her passion for science. Luckily her dad was a physics teacher because otherwise I don’t think she got much encouragement.</p>

2003

<p>

</p>

<p>Likewise, one would have to be blind to believe that MIT is the only “worthwhile” school in math / science / engineering, and blind to believe that MIT’s judgment is The Final Word on One’s Potential.</p>

2004

<p>Peter Woit! Never thought I’d see his name on CC! (Guess where he was an undergrad - not MIT.)</p>

2005

<p>Law of unintended consequences and auto admits at MIT.</p>

<p>Tiger parents will now know one sure way their kids get into MIT and USAMO will be the next biggest thing happening. 3 milion people participating in USAMO or whatever else will be allowed to have auto admits. It is the new common entrance exam!</p>

<p>I had a chat with the MIT alum after the kid’s interview last year. The alum mentioned this Indian American kid who interviewed and was confident he had a better shot at MIT than IIT. His reasoning - MIT had an 8% admit rate while IIT was at less than 2% through the entrance exam. The alum said he did not know how to tell him they are not the same process for selection.</p>

2006

<p>

</p>

<p>Is it also to make the next generation of elite investment bankers and the like?</p>

2007

<p>I think texaspg is hitting on precisely that – that MIT doesn’t WANT to see all-the-smart-students-dutifully-following-one-path-that-they-think-will-be-an-auto-admit. MIT can simultaneously think “wow, it’s a great thing that young students enter USAMO and flex their minds” and “it is not a good thing if USAMO becomes a means to an end, the golden-entry ticket to MIT versus a useful thing to pursue in and of itself for the sake of flexing one’s intellectual muscle.”</p>

<p>That in a nutshell is the whole problem with the “how come they won’t tell me why I didn’t make the cut, what is it that I have to do?” They don’t want to encourage pursuit of something for the mere sake of grabbing the golden ticket, but hopefully, presumably, because you had authentic, genuine interest and passion for that subject. And, of course, it’s quite possible to be a math genius and not necessarily have had interest in pursuing USAMO. (And of course, the whole USAMO-awareness-is-pretty-limited anyway, but that’s another matter.) </p>

<p>We all know darn well what happened when community-service-in-a-foreign-country became the golden ticket for elite admissions about 10 or so years ago. What was a good thing in and of itself – it IS good to help people! – lost value because too many people flocked to it to get what they thought would be a golden ticket to elite admissions. The unintended consequence was rich-kids going to Belize for the summer. Elite colleges certainly think that it’s good to show some community service and awareness of those who aren’t as fortunate, but they want it to be for the right motivation. If something is seen as the golden ticket, then that brings with it the consequence that entry in that will be done for the ticket rather than authentically.</p>

<p>Now, one can argue - what difference does it make if USAMO participation is done for the golden ticket or for the genuine love of solving math problems? After all, the problems are the same, and there aren’t any gimmes. Nonetheless, if too much of any one thing is rewarded, then it creates sameness, and anyone with any self-reflective capabilities whatsoever knows that sameness is the kiss of death in college apps.</p>

2008

<p>

</p>

<p>It would be nice if Houston put up its employment survey results. Searching its web site reveals an employment survey, but not the results.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, only a small percentage of universities do make that available.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/internships-careers-employment/1121619-university-graduate-career-surveys.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

2009

<p>QM,</p>

<p>Are you sure MIT doesn’t ask what other schools a student is applying to? I know many schools do.</p>

2010

<p>Further to some of the social-engineering themes in this thread:</p>

<p>Is it not perhaps a good idea to make certain that all the sexy USAMO qualifiers that QM wants to auto-admit DON’T go to the same college? If you spread 'em around among ten institutions, you may have a more vibrant, robust system of university math education than if they all clustered at one or two or three institutions (like MIT, its neighbor, and that place in deepest, darkest suburban NJ). </p>

<p>The unwillingness of the Ivies to accommodate all of the students who really deserve that kind of education has led to the emergence of a whole bunch of other universities that can credibly offer the same kind of undergraduate education, when a generation ago that was not so true. Why not embrace that rather than look on it as a problem?</p>

<p>Maybe there should be a cap on USAMO admittees at MIT and elsewhere, not a golden ticket in.</p>

2011

<p>^ Most engineers are absorbed by local industry and oil, gas and chemical industry has been doing well!</p>

<p>Unemployment rate in Houston is 6.3% as of sept 12.</p>

2012

<p>I have only one good friend that I know who went to MIT… and I swear she is one of the most brilliant “outside-of-the-box” thinkers I’ve ever met. She has an inner curiosity that is undeniable. In her success, she speaks at all kinds of STEM conferences around the world AND has developed quite a few programs for the empowerment of women in STEM programs. She has a brilliance and a confidence that is never condescending and in fact, genuinely interested in what others have to say. I can guarantee that she was exactly where she was meant to be when MIT accepted her.</p>

2013

<p>

</p>

<p>Terrific insight, and a great demonstration of how-to-turn-a-problem-on-its-head thinking that may or may not be measured in USAMO scores or SAT scores. (Not that I’m saying you probably didn’t do well on your SATs, JHS.)</p>

2014

<p>

</p>

<p>I have a friend who went to MIT, and honestly, she’s very bright and very successful in her career (which requires math facility, but also requires a whole other set of analytical and marketing skills) but she’s not head-over-heels brilliant or towering over mere-mortals or anything. She’s just very bright and in that regard fairly typical of those who attend elite schools and have some measure of professional success.</p>

2015

<p>

</p>

<p>Generally speaking, UCB, the quants from MIT aren’t Ibankers. They model, as do the engineers and others from other schools. I know several rocketscientists (literally) who were at the forefront of the modeling which has made the market incomprehensible to most investors.</p>

<p>There is an argument that they have ruined the markets, completely, at this point, and precipitated the social engineering program currently going by the name of QE…, but that is far outside the scope of this conversation.</p>

2016

<p>I can’t resist. I am in a recreational performance class with a 20-something young man who went to MIT. He is obviously very bright, but he is also tiresomely immature, and picks all his jokes from the scatalogical grab-bag just like many of the other young men his age who also happen to be in the class. Maybe he should have gone to Penn State and cleared the way for someone with purer credentials. Or maybe he DID have all the right credentials. Who knows? I do know he took the “I can make a lot of money with my degree” path.</p>

2017

<p>

Well duh. The real question is on average (not by anecdote) does the Ivy League grad with the impractical degree get hired more often than the one from the good school. The answer to that is probably, though much depends on how well they used their summers etc. We all know that for practical degrees(Engineering/CS/Nursing for example) where you went to school makes less difference. We also know that there are many states where for many jobs you will probably have an edge if you went to the state university. (NY is not one of those states.)</p>

<p>I know a kid who is going to be a Princeton grad if he ever writes his senior paper. As far as I can tell he’s barely unemployable - nice kid but very little job experience other than making a few short films. Psych major. I don’t think he’s typical for the school.</p>

<p>I have a friend who graduated from MIT went to grad school in biology at Caltech, has gone from one university to another, each one a lot further down the pregiosity (to use a term from another thread) scale. Still a nice guy, well-liked as a teacher, has never done ground breaking research.</p>

2018

<p>

</p>

<p>I agree with others that the USAMO or any other contest should not confer auto-admit status. The Tiger parents and children have already noticed the contests listed at [Enrichment</a> Opportunities | MIT Admissions](<a href=“http://mitadmissions.org/apply/prepare/enrichment]Enrichment”>Enrichment opportunities | MIT Admissions) . Many people may only look at such a site in 11th grade and be at a disadvantage compared to students who have been preparing since middle school (for example by taking AP science classes early so they are better qualified to do research in grades 10-12).</p>

2019

<p>My head hurts after catching up.</p>

<p>My only comment is to GFG (and others who share her perspective)-- I must know hundreds of people with fine careers in engineering (I used to recruit engineers) who neither aspired to the MIT/Cal Tech’s of the world, nor would have been qualified. If your son was discouraged from engineering because he couldn’t be the tippy top I feel bad for him- but there is ample evidence (you can get it by looking at the Careers section of any major corporation and checking their recruiting calendar and see which campuses they go to) that working engineers come from all over. Being an engineer is not like being a concert pianist- although I think Quant Mech and a few other posters are heading that way in their logic. Yes, getting tenure at MIT as a professor in engineering is a tough thing to do, and a tenure track academic position (in virtually any field) has rough odds. Ask any Egyptologist you run into at Costco this weekend.</p>

<p>But I would encourage any HS kid who has an interest in engineering to give it a try. I don’t believe the argument that my encouragement is somehow insensitive to kids from modest upbringings holds water-- yes, an extra year’s tuition is painful if your kid switches tracks junior year, but the likely scenario is an extra years tuition to move INTO a STEM field, not to move out. Engineers who move into econ or stats or urban planning or comp lit are typically NOT behind the curve to graduate on time.</p>

<p>Missouri U of Science and Technology is a “hidden gem”; I could name you a dozen fine institutions which graduate highly employable engineers. And you don’t need AIME or math competitions to get accepted.</p>

<p>I did not raise my kids to believe that if you can’t be the best or the top of the class, you should go find another thing to be best in. That’s crazy advice. No matter how driven or competitive your kid, you need to model for them that there will ALWAYS be someone smarter, thinner, better hair, nicer toys, more money. Always. </p>

<p>Kid struggles in AP Calc? I don’t think the answer is to dump engineering (if they are so inclined.) My kids found some aspects of college rough going-- to me, that’s what I was paying for. Steep learning curve. Hard work. Grit. Determination.</p>

<p>All those non-academic lessons that the AIME and USAMO don’t measure. And why no school (to my knowledge) uses a single criterion as an auto-admit.</p>

<p>I don’t think we as parents should be telling our kids that the 1700 kids admitted to MIT every year represent what MIT believes to be the strongest STEM cohort in the world. Even they don’t think that. The university admits fewer internationals than it would if that were the case- for financial reasons. The university admits more disadvantaged kids from public HS in Cambridge-- for town/gown reasons. The university admits more staff kids-- because it helps with employee retention and keeps the costs of recruiting down.</p>

<p>So What? They never claim that their admits are the best and the brightest proto-scientists in the world, why would you? They represent a very talented group of kids- some of whom also can play the flute or debate or run track or write poetry-- and that’s what makes attending MIT fun and exciting and interesting for everyone else-- even for the few dozen who were admitted solely on intellectual potential, genius, or whatever you want to call it, and brought nothing else to the table. Even the math genius likes to attend a chamber music concert occasionally.</p>

<p>There are lots of careers where the odds of success are low. I imagine a musician who doesn’t make it into Julliard and ends up at SUNY Purchase must face a few days of feeling low. So that parent has a choice- tell your kid to ditch the violin because the gods of music are telling him something-- or encourage your kid to be the best that he can be and to bloom where he is planted. I know both kinds of parents- and although I haven’t a clue as to the best way to raise a musical prodigy, I can assure you that if you want your child to have a decent adulthood with a shred of self-respect and confidence, it doesn’t come by telling your kid “Julliard or bust. If you don’t get in, you can become a dental hygienist so at least we know you can support yourself”.</p>

2020

<p>I cannot perceive the problem. The ability to understand mathematics is not linked inseparably to a desire to pursue a career in research. It isn’t even linked to a desire to attend MIT. </p>

<p>Quantitative thinking is so important today, more important than at any other time in history, due in great part to the advances in computing. Rather than bemoan the fact that a strong math student might not be positioned for a career in scientific research at the age of 18, why don’t we celebrate the fact that such a student has a multitude of fascinating career options available to her? Many of those careers are well paid. Such a student is in the best position to choose a career she finds interesting and fulfilling. </p>

<p>This discussion is akin to lamenting, “My neighbor’s child didn’t get into Harvard! She must make do with Georgetown instead! How will she ever become a Supreme Court Justice! The whole world should lament!” Rather than thinking, “In this point in time, Georgetown is a fascinating place to begin her adult life. The sky’s the limit!”</p>