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<p>Oh, I do not think that the important schools think Texas (and Houston) is a dump as much as they know that they won’t lose or gain many applications one way or the other. Such school might really think that sending troops to Wyoming, Montana, or South Carolina are better battlefields. </p>
<p>As far building relationships with schools (and GCs) you probably know what I think about that part! :)</p>
<p>c.alum: it’s any of that…and more. In the world we are talking about, that “more” is critical. First, because the pool is top-heavy with mind-bogglingly great kids- and limited seats. There has to be some qualitative component. Second, because the quality of that “more” speaks to the judgment, perspective, openness and flexibility, maturity, compassion, and standards a kid has. His likelihood not to just pursue and promote his own singular ambitions, but integrate into campus life, make some early impacts on peers, campus, community, as stepping stones to his future greatness. </p>
<p>You can easily see this when you look at your kids’ friends- you like some for sheer academic strengths and accomplishments, others for how they function on a team, some for their empathy and the mentoring they offer, some for doggedness despite challenges- lots of reasons. But, if you were composing a high level team for, say, an oos academic competition, one that also involved socializing- is sheer might always most important? If the kid can’t work with others, can only answer the math questions, is late to each meet, gets easily bummed out…don’t you factor those things in? That’s not the best example, but think about it. Then think of which you’d want to come along on some family expedition.</p>
<p>Not to mention (as has been repeatedly noted), there are some high aptitude math and science kids who have little or no interest whatsoever in these kinds of math competitions ,math clubs,etc. Heck, I could not get my kids interested in sitting down to do any SAT prep, let alone participate in math tests that apparently go on for hours. Too busy playing sports, hanging with friends,etc.</p>
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<p>The AMC and AIME don’t take any longer than a school exam. From my recollection, they took an hour. The later rounds are much longer, however, but I don’t know exactly.</p>
<p>As for your point, if a student doesn’t do something to demonstrate what ability they have, then they shouldn’t expect people to know they have that ability and have the interest/willpower to use it.</p>
<p>"As for this point, if a student doesn’t do something to demonstrate what ability they have, then they shouldn’t expect people to know they have that ability and have the interest/willpower to use it. "</p>
<p>Agreed.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure if people are familiar with Art of Problem Solving, but it is probably the most well-known community where people discuss math and math contests. Every year, for the past 8 years, AoPS has hosted a chat room where a few admissions officers answer questions people have about MIT, including its admissions process. You can see the transcript for this year’s chatroom here - [Math</a> Jams Transcripts](<a href=“Math Jams”>Math Jams). So yes, I think MIT is much more in the know than you think.</p>
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<p>Apart from the fact that just the names ARML and USAPhO are meaningless by themselves, these questions are not that hard to answer, even for someone who has no knowledge about math or science. And if MIT doesn’t really care about the difference, I don’t see why that matters. Doing well in any of contests you mentioned show at some level there is an interest in math.</p>
<p>My point is you don’t need to be USAMO material to do well in math and science. S1 780M SAT,800 in Math and Physics SAT ll, 5’s in BC Calc and Physics,etc. Did fine in engineering, breezed through calc and physics in college as has S2 who only had a 710 in Math SAT and did not even take SAT ll’s. Not everybody has to show the intererst/willpower at age 17 via participating in these contests. Would you exclude these kinds of kids because they did not participate in clubs,tests, research as teenagers? They did play with Legos and liked playing on the computer-does that count?</p>
<p>I have already posted quite a few times that I see obtaining a few points on the USAMO as a sufficient, but not necessary qualification for admission to MIT. I have very high regard for the students who can do this, no matter how enriched their environments are.</p>
<p>My estimates make the number of auto-qualified students MIT is not taking already at 18, which is about 1% of the admitted class. I didn’t cook the numbers to arrive at this result. I’ve posted my method, and you are free to adjust all of my estimates in accord with your own information/guesses.</p>
<p>I think there is plenty of room in the remaining 99% of the admissions to accomplish MIT’s non-academic goals (and its academic ones, not indicated by USAMO). Actually, I think that since the yield of the remaining 18 that I’ve suggested should be auto-admits is likely to be substantially lower than MIT’s overall yield, there is a little extra leeway.</p>
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<p>That’s a good idea. But before swapping, let’s see why the math kids didn’t make it while others in the group did. It also depends on if both boys and girls are included in the group.</p>
<p>A math score alone is not reliable, unless the score (USAMO) is independent of time of preparation. A better indicator would be score divided by hours spent on the subject outside of classes, e.g., SAT M 800/800h=1 vs 800/4h=200. The latter is preferred.</p>
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<p>Who knows. If NS gets his hands on all the data that adcoms have, he might be able to tell one kid has a chance of .206 while another .332, but probably 1.0 for no one.</p>
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<p>There is some research on how admissions criteria relate to student success:</p>
<p>[CSHE</a> - Validity Of High-School Grades In Predicting Student Success Beyond The Freshman Year: High-School Record vs. Standardized Tests as Indicators of Four-Year College Outcomes](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)
[CSHE</a> - Not So Fast! A Second Opinion on a University of California Proposal to Endorse the New SAT](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)
[CSHE</a> - The Role Of Advanced Placement And Honors Courses In College Admissions](<a href=“Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education”>Publications | Center for Studies in Higher Education)
[[1011.0663</a>] Nonlinear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics](<a href=“http://arxiv.org/abs/1011.0663][1011.0663”>[1011.0663] Nonlinear Psychometric Thresholds for Physics and Mathematics)</p>
<p>Of course, whether the recommendations from such research are accepted (versus disputed) is another story, as is also whether accepted recommendations are implemented to the extent that they compete with other pressures placed on admissions policy (e.g. political pressures, donation attracting pressures in favor of legacies and developmental admits, athletic recruiting, popularity of and access to standardized tests other than the SAT-R and ACT, etc.).</p>
<p>In addition, it is harder to conduct similar analyses on specific “holistic” criteria (essays, extracurriculars, etc.).</p>
<p>And in regards to math competitions (and other competitions), there are many who have an extra hand, as it were, in preparing. I know of 5 national level competitors (USAMO, PhO) who worked with either private math tutors (previous IMO winners) or unversity professors in preparation for their math competitions. I know of another USAMO student who did WOOT. I’m not suggesting that you can’t make any of the high level teams without spending the extra money on tutors, etc., but it can help. These students who do well spend a <em>lot</em> of time preparing for these competitions. I know this.</p>
<p>And, as a confession, my son did a one hour session with a former IMO winner and decided he didn’t want to work that hard (because this guy was expecting my son to spend hours each week preparing for math competitions) and I couldn’t afford $50 an hour for this anyhow.</p>
<p>And AoPS is a pretty amazing place to hang out on. Too bad my son spent most of his time on the Mafia forum. 
But I digress…</p>
<p>sevmom,</p>
<p>And more than a few of these kids are ones that don’t just score 800s on math SAT but do so at age 11 or 12 or even younger. Not all mathy/sciency kids are drawn to competitions, for sure.</p>
<p>And collegealum, the AIME is a 3 hour test. AMCs are 1 hour tests. USAMO is spread over two days (I think 3 hours a day). Physics Olympiad semi- finals are 3-3 1/2 hours, and I don’t know how long the bio or chem olympiad exams are. I don’t know how long any of the IMO exams are.</p>
<p>Yes,sbjdorlo, These competitions are things that alot of kids just don’t have an interest in.My kids went to a diverse city public school (not a magnet like a TJ type of place). No emphasis on these kinds of tests.</p>
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<p>Athletic and musical opportunities are also distributed unequally, but few people say admissions committees should not consider athletic and musical achievement for that reason.</p>
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<p>These are all “duh” kinds of questions / answers. Anyone who can’t figure them out, or who is shocked-shocked-shocked to hear any of these things, simply isn’t paying attention. This isn’t some secret formula being revealed.</p>
<p>Just to toss this in: The AIME is given during the school day. The students I know who took it enjoyed missing class for it. Of course, several just slept through it. Literally, according to reports I have heard.</p>
<p>My friend, who is more of a physics (experimental) type (now attending a very well regarded Ivy) said that he did enough of the contest questions to qualify and then went to sleep because he was tired :)</p>
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<p>Are female USAMO winners more likely to be admitted? Relative gender balance seems to be important to MIT (and undoubtedly to its male population!). To the extent that USAMO participation is less attractive to females, MIT might be inclined to admit females with similar stats to male USAMO winners but without that actual participation record.</p>
<p>Beliavsky,</p>
<p>Absolutely! But I don’t think anyone is discounting the USAMO at all. I wasn’t; I was just making the point that you can train for it. </p>
<p>QM, wonderfully, our local math circle hosts the AIME in the evening for those who don’t have it available at their school.</p>
<p>“several just slept through it.”</p>
<p>Several 12th graders who don’t need the APs but are registered practice their naps during the APs. My kid did in a couple of them.</p>